Comments on: The Definition of Madness https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:00:11 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73211 Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:00:11 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73211 Part of the problem here is that when one of the two major parties wins an election in this system, they suddenly lose most of their desire to change it. Another problem is that much as American voters seem to dislike the system, they know full well that they would struggle to come to any agreement on the alternatives. That’s a part of the Trump vote, in fact: his voters overwhelmingly agreed with the sentiment that the system needs to be changed, and I think it might be fair to say that they actually expect Trump to be an indiscriminate wrecking ball rather than a surgical reformer, because they have come to the conclusion that this is the only way the system will change. It’s one of those wicked problems: everyone wants something different; nobody can agree on what. Even third parties, as you note, lack the patience to try and run a steady campaign to change the system rather than a single candidate who might change it. The academic and activist Lawrence Lessig ran for President this year as a single-issue candidate pledging to change how campaigns are financed, but that fizzled completely for a lot of reasons.

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By: GemmaM https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73210 Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:10:47 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73210 I’m speaking as a New Zealander, albeit one who lived in America until recently, so maybe I’m completely off base, but I really wish there was more public support, in America, for reforming your electoral system, and I honestly don’t think this is a bad time to build that. It never ceases to amaze me that all over the political spectrum, every four years, vast numbers of people begin a sentence with “we want to change the system … ” and end it with ” … so that’s why we need this particular president.” If you hate the system, why not actually change it?

Right now, it’s possible for every single person in America to vote, notice that they’re voting for the lesser of two evils and that there’s some option they can imagine that they’d like better, and wonder how many others feel the same way. Having power filtered through only two major parties means they’ve got no way of knowing what the public will really is. It leaves room for people to suppose that they have more, or less, support than they actually do. It leaves people feeling disenfranchised and willing to vote for anyone who seems to offer a way for them to be heard.

We’re pretty worried, over here, about whether Brexit and Trump and Australia’s draconian immigration policies are a sign that there are large numbers of New Zealanders that we, too, are not hearing. But on the other hand, with proportional representation, it’s easy to respond to that with “Yes, they’re here, they’ve been around for a while, they’re called New Zealand First, they get between 4% and 13% of the vote depending on the year, giving them power quite often tanks their support as people realise they don’t really like them all that much, any more questions?”

I can understand why you’d be frustrated by people talking about changes they want without having any way of implementing them, don’t get me wrong. But it seems like actual system change, in America, doesn’t even have a spokesperson. At this moment in history, with so many people dissatisfied, can you not even get that much? Not one Democrat who holds or ever has held elected office, who would advocate for these changes? Not one Republican, except for of all people Donald Trump, who agrees the electoral college is stupid and thinks he could have won without it? Not even one Green or Libertarian to say, hey, maybe we could break the two party system by changing the system, rather than by electing this one person president?

Maybe Americans don’t really want to change the system at all. Maybe that’s what it is. If so, far be it from me to tell you how to run your country, but … I don’t get it.

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By: William Benzon https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73207 Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:14:52 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73207 Whoops! Should have been “…good that a woman would have won.”

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By: William Benzon https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73206 Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:12:01 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73206 I’m not happy. But I’m not in new-born despair either. I wouldn’t have been terribly happy over a Clinton victory. Yes, good that a woman won. But a neoliberal war hawk in the pocket of the 0.01%? No joy in Mudville on that one I’m afraid. What resonates is a passage from, of all people, Ross Douthat:

I fear the risks of a Trump presidency as I have feared nothing in our politics before. But he will be the president, thanks to a crude genius that identified all the weak spots in our parties and our political system and that spoke to a host of voters for whom that system promised at best a sustainable stagnation under the tutelage of a distant and self-satisfied elite.

Fiddling while Rome burns? Of course, I don’t see that Trump can do much to improve the lives of his core constituents. Does that mean he’ll ratchet up the scapegoating?

And then there’s an observation I attribute to Scott Alexander (by way of Tyler Cowen): For all we know, the election was decided by noise in this system. The popular vote appears to have been very close, so close that any number of relatively small events could have flipped the electoral count one way or the other. This is STILL the country that elected Barack Obama to two terms.

Can’t say that I’m terribly happy about that either, but it’s complicated (e.g. his eulogy for Clementa Pinckney may/should go down in history as one of the great political speeches) and I’ve said enough.

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By: Jerry Hamrick https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73202 Thu, 10 Nov 2016 22:29:06 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73202 I can testify that for more than a decade you have “been forecasting a genuine crisis if we could not change some of these directions.” And I can agree that it has “unmistakably arrived.”

In July of 2004, I reached retirement age, and that milestone caused me to start work on keeping a vow I made in the spring of 1956: to improve our government and economic systems. I started searching the Internet for sites that were doing the same, or had already solved the problem. I did not, and have not, found any. I found your blog in 2005 and was glad to see that you were identifying problems in a way that convinced me that you really meant business. I have come here ever since. At the same time, I found that many other blogs were also identifying problems. So, every morning I would rise at 5:00 and read the posts on my list of favorite sites. The list changed over the years, but yours remained on the top, chiefly because of the initial fire I saw in your posts. But, as the years went by, I found that none of the blogs I followed ever advanced beyond the problem-identification stage—including yours. The same is true today, although some of the fire has returned after a long absence.

You express your unhappiness with those who are focusing on small points while failing to develop comprehensive solutions. I share your frustration. I have experienced it almost daily now since 2004. Back then it was, or should have been, obvious to the most casual observer that we were headed toward an environmental disaster. I was made aware of this by Rachel Carson’s “Silent Spring,” in the early sixties. I have been an avid birder since 1948 and her book hit me hard. And it did not take long to see that our government and economic systems were not designed to deal with that sort of long-term crisis. This became the focus of my design project. I wanted to design systems that could undertake centuries-long projects and sustain them to completion.

The problems were obvious, and I went all over the Internet landscape in an effort to get people interested in discussing solutions—and I have failed. You want to be taken seriously, and so do I. I do take you seriously, I have from the start. But, you have not taken me seriously. This comment is not the first time that I have made this plea, and here it comes again. You want something to be done. I think that you want, though you haven’t really said it, to see a plan that answers four questions: Where do we stand? How did we get here? Where do we want to go? How do we get there from here? I have a plan that answers all of these questions. It is unclear how much time we have to act on my plan, but it is clear that there is a real drop-dead date. If you know of a better plan then jump on it. I will do all I can to help. If you want to try your hand at developing your own plan, then I wish you well, and I will help. But if these two approaches are not available, then please consider my plan. Doing nothing is suicidal.

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By: Justin WA https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73201 Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:23:07 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73201 Said another way, you can’t play the game (tennis match, chess you name it) and then say you didn’t like the rules when you lose, so the game shouldn’t count. You also can’t assume the whole reason you lost was because of one and only one aspect of the game. The ugly truth is that this place called America is the epitome of contradiction and getting the election process just right is not going to resolve that. Hard work ahead.

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By: Doug Blank https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73200 Thu, 10 Nov 2016 18:30:04 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73200 Good advice on understanding what happened, and what to do next. I tried to write a bit on exploring the same in terms of a higher-level, data, emergent patterns of elections, and how that can effect what kinds of decisions one makes next:

http://cs.brynmawr.edu/~dblank/blog/understanding-election-data/

I think “organize” can include further exploring questions, like those that Pat describes. Much to do!

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By: Mark S. https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73199 Thu, 10 Nov 2016 18:24:37 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73199 I see what you are saying. We need to win by these rules if we want to change the rules (obvious problem you pointed out on twitter – once you win do you really want to change the rules?).

BUT

If we want to make our way through this, don’t we also have to know what the problems are and let those who are amenable to helping (even some trump voters) know that this stuff is going on? Don’t we need to know what we want institutionally? Don’t we need to try and get the media to cover such things?

So yeah, we need to focus a little on the electoral college and the fact that for the second consecutive time in a presidential year the party that won the popular vote for the House will be behind by 30+ seats. We need to focus on the racial animus and misogyny that scares us so much. So maybe its an excuse as you say but it could also be part of that journey to find shelter and two days after an election we can’t know the difference.

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By: NickS https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73198 Thu, 10 Nov 2016 16:56:31 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73198 Two thoughts , without a lot of clarity,

First, you were right and I was wrong. I’ve spent a lot of time linking about your various election posts and, up until Tuesday, I thought you were wrong to emphasize 2016 as a year of rupture as much as you did. I was wrong.

Secondly, reading this post, I find myself thinking about (Bill) Clinton* in 1992 — that was his pitch, that he was somebody who could win the election.

There is inevitably some tension between short-term and long-term goals. The thing that was so encouraging about Obama’s relatively easy victories was that it offered the hope that liberal Democrats could spend more time thinking about long-term goals and less on short-term.

After this defeat, the Democratic party will inevitably change shape — and I think it will change in directions that I like, but I’m not sure. But it will also, as you say, need people who are ambitious and ready to run right now, even if they aren’t completely trustworthy, and I’m not looking forward to that.

* Side note: at some point during the campaign I saw a comment, “my hope is that Hillary will be good enough as president that people will think of Bill as the ‘other’ Clinton president.” I agreed completely.

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By: Jennifer https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2016/11/10/the-definition-of-madness/comment-page-1/#comment-73197 Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:26:13 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=3048#comment-73197 I really appreciate your blog and tweets and find them full of reason and humanity. I was horrified by the election, but I’d been horrified for months and months. It was almost (almost) a relief when the hideous thing happened because I could stop bracing for it and I guess because now Democrats can regroup and shake off some ineffective and toxic attitudes. That wasn’t going to happen when we thought we had the election in our pocket. (Though I wish we had.) As Pat writes, it’s too soon to talk about this much because people are hurting a lot. I am very worried, based on the reactions of people in my liberal circles that they are going to draw all the wrong lessons from this and double down on the very ideas (which are not 100% untrue, but far from 100 true) that helped get us here: “America hates women!” “America hates black people!” I’ve seen some crazy, ugly stuff on Facebook.
But it’s early days. I’m hopeful.

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