Comments on: Suez Has Already Happened https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Fri, 06 Sep 2013 16:20:19 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Stephen Rynerson https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72332 Fri, 06 Sep 2013 16:20:19 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72332 The better analogy for the Iraq War is the Boer War, IMHO — launched on false pretext, relatively fast conventional victory followed by dispiriting unconventional warfare that leads to the creation of a compromise government that fails to live up to the liberal ideals that were used to sell the invasion, produces a country that’s a pretty marginal ally of the invader (notwithstanding the dependency of the compromise government on the invader’s support for a number of years after the war), while exposing the invading power’s weaknesses and alienating many countries that were otherwise friendly or at least neutral before. Intervention in Syria would be more like Suez in that it is an even more unilateral action than Iraq and with an even weaker rationale under international law and the level of force proposed is incompatible with achieving the stated objectives.

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By: June Gorman https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72330 Fri, 06 Sep 2013 08:44:19 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72330 I re-read this original post today, having read it when it first came out (as highlighted on Alec Resnick’s tumblr: http://alecresnick.tumblr.com).

I read it again because, though quite depressing in its actual premises, truth and the unflinching willingness to look at reality straight on makes me feel sane again in an increasingly insane (definitely increasingly “dysfunctional” as WithyWindle says above)
world. I know that foundation of an attempt to look “straight at reality”, without the cowardly and self-serving equivocation, is the only one on which true problem-solving or effective change, if there is any hope for it, is based.

But I am not sure I agree about Syria. I am not sure…for the same reasons you state Timothy…the current reality and thinking and “political” vacillation (depending apparently on political campaign donor calculations). But I think the definition of a true morality is that it doesn’t vacillate based on those calculations.

The time to act in Syria was immediately after knowing (and it isn’t really that hard) that Assad acted pretty much as expected. Actually the time to act was beforehand, by having a thought out plan that showed you believed in your own espoused morality and what a “Red Line” means; that you take responsibility for knowing that before you draw it. It doesn’t mean — re-doing calculations based on pointless public opinion polls (does it depend on what gas was used? or how the wind was blowing that day?) and how it “plays” politically.

Once you gather your solid facts, (what is all your billions of intrusive intelligence apparatus worth if you can’t move heaven and earth to get evidence of a humanitarian crime with this much “footprint”?) and avoid the lying cloud of total obfuscation that was WMD that foretold all the rest about the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld Administration and their vision of both morality and war, you act. You act “strategically”, having already considered those actions and their most effective result and possible repercussions.

Sociopathic bullies never backdown once they see only cowards vacillating around them, history having taught us this above all else. Millions of lives having already paid the price of convenience-morality, which always runs from the risk of being truly stalwart, when that is the only morally valid response.

Yes, America lost any semblance of that true moral highground long ago, and perhaps a semblance is all we ever really had. But many Americans truly believed in it; morality still has its converts even today there and other places. It would be nice to see it again, in any leadership of anyone in the US, at all.

Thank you nonetheless, for the sad sanity of this piece.

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By: Barry https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72322 Tue, 03 Sep 2013 16:05:03 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72322 “Oh, we’re plenty capable of blowing up Syria’s chemical-weapons stores, and their means of delivering those weapons.”

No, we are capable of blowing up *some* of each.

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By: Barry https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72321 Tue, 03 Sep 2013 16:04:24 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72321 Timothy: “The sad part of all this is that when the people of Aleppo cry out to the world and ask why the world has failed them, they are really crying out to the imaginary “world” of the Pax Americana, which even if it never lived up to its billing, was at least a world where it seemed somehow possible that something would be done and something was doable. The “world” to which the burned and dying of Aleppo now cry out is a world that has never cared for them. ”

Back in the days of Pax Americana, the US was quite capable of selling ‘chemical technology’ to the people who gas people, giving them satellite intel to help gas better, and send the diplomats out to poo-poo the ‘crazy’ idea that one of Our Guys would use such weapons. And that’s for the forbidden weapons; whenever it came down to some mass murder carried out with good old-fashioned artillery, bombs and machine guns, the US would happily sell the guns, ammunition and train people in the finer points of torture.

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By: Joan Neuberger https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72320 Tue, 03 Sep 2013 14:47:01 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72320 best thing I’ve read on these issues.

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By: Michah https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72318 Mon, 02 Sep 2013 19:12:20 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72318 I think Vietnam spelled the end for that “Empire” and it was a short lived one. When you send young soldiers to fight and die for no cause except a political dogmatic false-flag war, it’s easy to lose support of the public. I can’t imagine an educated American that doesn’t understand that government is run by and for big bucks ( i.e. corporate interests) and that the people’s government “for the people by the people” has disappeared completely except in the propaganda.
2 cents.

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By: Dave https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72317 Sun, 01 Sep 2013 19:04:10 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72317 Kind of puzzled by the idea that the Falklands War was a farce. Fascist dictatorship invades neighbouring territory. Population liberated by their desired government, despite difficulties of military operations as a great distance from fixed bases. Fascist dictatorship subsequently [and partly at least consequently] removed from power.

There WAS an associated farce, of course, but it was all in the diplomatic sphere, before, during and after…

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By: DensityDuck https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72315 Sun, 01 Sep 2013 08:38:31 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72315 What happened was that George Bush invaded Panama, and it turned out as well as anyone dreamed. A loathsome dictator deposed, all our stuff worked great, hardly anyone got killed, and the people got on with their lives afterwards. Still fucked-up, but (other than the dead ones) not significantly more fucked-up than before.

And the result of that was the idea that the United States could go into a place, destroy the existing government, install a new one, leave, and everything would be fine.

“I don’t favor it because we are no longer capable of it for the reasons this post suggests.”

Oh, we’re plenty capable of blowing up Syria’s chemical-weapons stores, and their means of delivering those weapons.

What we’re not capable of is mind-controlling the entirety of the Arab world to convince them that this means the United States of America is a good friendly country they should like.

The first thing a battered woman does when the cops arrest her boyfriend is to scream and cry about how they’re a bunch of bastards. The cops, she means, because they’re arresting her boyfriend. Being part of the tribe and attacking the outsider is far more important than anything the other tribe members might be doing to you.

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By: Urban Exile https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72310 Sun, 01 Sep 2013 01:59:07 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72310 This is priceless. You display beautiful thinking and even more beautiful word-smithing, and your descriptions of the think tank Eunuchs (I am sure I had a run-in last year with some of them at a conference at Duke), and North Korea as Renaissance Faire are so nice I had to read them twice. I look forward to reading more. BTW, your blog comes today recommended to me by Tenured Radical on FB.

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By: Withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/08/30/suez-has-already-happened/comment-page-1/#comment-72308 Sat, 31 Aug 2013 02:17:45 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2426#comment-72308 Poke! Poke!

OK.

By the by, while I am generally Pessimistic about the American Empire, there’s a case to be made that we’ll make out OK because all our competitors are even more dysfunctional than we are. (I suppose that would specifically be “China has some spectacular problems looming.) Or, for a middle ground, that our decline will be slower than you might think because our competitors are nearly as dysfunctional as we are. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

By the by, when the American Empire collapses, isn’t that also going to put a crimp in African History? I can see most History departments shrinking back to a largely American core when we no longer rule the world.

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