Comments on: The Slow Poison of the Covert Imagination https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/06/10/the-slow-poison-of-the-covert-imagination/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:21:42 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Barry https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/06/10/the-slow-poison-of-the-covert-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-70070 Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:21:42 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2368#comment-70070 Tim: “Digital search is mostly still the art of sifting and reorganizing what human beings already know about each other, not the work of a post-Singularity augmented intelligence finding every needle in the biggest haystack ever. ”

Actually, it’s closer to that than to what you’re thinking of. Go to Crooked Timber, and read ‘Using Metadata to find Paul Revere’ (http://crookedtimber.org/2013/06/10/using-metadata-to-find-paul-revere/)

And that’s literally Linear Algebra 101. That’s what could be taught in the first week of social networking analysis. Imagine what the current status of data mining is, and then imagine what an agency such as the NSA could have, which has been long known to have some pretty major tech/science advantages.

Then add to it the fact that they don’t need to make a profit or have positive ROI. They can have a very high false positive rate, and that’s not a problem.

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By: CarlD https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/06/10/the-slow-poison-of-the-covert-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-69940 Tue, 11 Jun 2013 18:22:52 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2368#comment-69940 I think you’re dead right to call attention to the mirror trap of hubris and fatalism. I riffed on this awhile back in relation to choking hazard labels on hot dogs, rusty wire, and the upbringing of Inuit children. How much risk should we tolerate, or even embrace?

In the Enlightenment tradition of contextless rationalism the answer is basically ‘none’, because life is in principle perfectible and therefore any imperfection is morally intolerable. Isn’t this where the rape culture / gun culture / surveillance culture move comes from? Isn’t it self-defeating? If every moment of every life needs to be free of risk, then of course we need a massive panoptical apparatus of control. Of course we need security cameras on the doors of the Intercultural Center. Of course you need some kind of neo-colonial protection from the ordinary microaggression of your foreignness in Zimbabwe. Of course rolling into an inherently imperfect new orientation toward privacy, as you suggest for the justice system at Swarthmore, is an expedient violation of moral rigor.

Well that’s obviously silly. So given that there’s going to be risk, there also has to be trust. Without trust, life is nothing but an endless anxiety of powerlessness with respect to forces we can’t possibly control; or, as you say, the awful fantasy of total control. On this view the ‘culture’ move is inherently panopticizing. It turns a statistical possibility into an existential mandate. I’m no more interested in a regime of rigorous oversight of my elected representatives than I’m interested in rigorous oversight of my garbage collector or cameras in the campus hallways or mandatory sidearms for faculty and staff; or poking into every closet looking for contraband Glocks, for that matter. And that means things are going to go wrong sometimes, and we’ll inherently have to fix them after the fact, and/or accept some ‘spoilage’ as a consequence of an unregimented life.

What I’m arguing is that a degree of trust and risk-tolerance is the escape hatch from the mirror trap of hubris and fatalism. Of course we could also get religion; that’s been known to work.

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By: jerry hamrick https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/06/10/the-slow-poison-of-the-covert-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-69929 Tue, 11 Jun 2013 12:52:23 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2368#comment-69929 “And it is counter to the fundamental ethos of American governance: the Constitution absolutely forbids the state to assert novel powers not granted to it and absolutely forbids the state to keep the assertion of such powers secret.”

This forbiddance in the Constitution was added after the original ratification, and, as you have pointed out, it has been ignored ever since. When the People, as the myth goes, after careful consideration, delegate all of their power to a small group of elected officials, they are powerless and their delegates are free to do pretty much as they please for years. This was deliberate. It was done to protect the economic interests of the elites who wrote and ratified the Constitution.

Charles A. Beard got it right about a century ago when he published, “An Economic Interpretation of the American Constitution.” At the time, other historians agreed, and he views were ascendant. But about fifty years later, when I was a student in a class on the Constitution, the lecturer let us know that Beard’s views were controversial and even radical.

But my point is already made. You are complaining about the fact that the Constitution is not working the way you believe it is designed to work. I say it is working the way it was designed. It does work the way I say, or you would not be complaining. So, who is right?

But I agree with you that the way it is working is wrong. But what should it be changed to? How should the changes be made? Who should do it? When should they start? How long will it take? Who will resist the effort to make changes? How will their resistance be overcome?

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By: Ae Viescas https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/06/10/the-slow-poison-of-the-covert-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-69899 Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:43:13 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2368#comment-69899 Ah, that’s it. Something was bothering me about how the surveillance debate was framed, and I couldn’t quite put my finger on it until now. Well said.

The worst part of all of this is that all the hysterics about the surveillance being “beyond Orwellian” (whatever that means) plays right into the hands of the technocrats, who can smugly sit back in their chairs and say “well of course we could have this amount of power. That’s the goal! But we’ll use it for *good* of course”

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/06/10/the-slow-poison-of-the-covert-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-69898 Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:42:46 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2368#comment-69898 The Constitution proposes that government is limited–and that it does not possess any powers that are not expressly granted to it in the document. “Trust us” with regard to surveillance is an explicit violation of that proposition–an assertion that the US government has powers not granted to it that it cannot even disclose to its people nor ask for permission to hold. Remember that none of the revelations of post-9/11 assertion of extensive, novel executive and security powers have been made voluntarily by the executive: the executive (both Bush and Obama) have treated even the fact of those assertions as state secrets to be concealed even from other branches of government save in the most limited and classified ways. So when the President says he’s eager for a national conversation about these issues, this is far more than ordinary political bullshittery: it is 100% counter to everything that the surveillance state has been doing for at least a decade, arguably two. And it is counter to the fundamental ethos of American governance: the Constitution absolutely forbids the state to assert novel powers not granted to it and absolutely forbids the state to keep the assertion of such powers secret.

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By: jerry hamrick https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/06/10/the-slow-poison-of-the-covert-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-69897 Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:31:31 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2368#comment-69897 The U.S. Constitution does not work in the way you describe it. As the government is designed, it is free to say, “Trust us.” In fact, it is expected to say exactly that. And the actions of government have never been constrained by either the consent or the participation of the People. If you will review our history with these thoughts in mind you will see that government has always operated free from the need to gain the consent of the People, and it has always been able to require the participation of the People should it be needed.
The form of government you described is a democracy. We live in a Madisonian Republic. The two forms of government are very, very different.

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By: Erich Schwarz https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/06/10/the-slow-poison-of-the-covert-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-69896 Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:29:40 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2368#comment-69896 Well said.

I believe that in practice we *do* need to assume that the existing powers will be badly abused. But even if they weren’t being, what you describe here is radically worse than whatever domestic abuses of the federal government may have already occurred.

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