Comments on: Apres Le Perturbation https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/01/11/apres-le-perturbation/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:24:13 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/01/11/apres-le-perturbation/comment-page-1/#comment-26868 Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:24:13 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2208#comment-26868 You’re right to finger the degree to which I’m seeing something here that’s peculiarly tied to modernization, and that’s certainly open to question. It’s not so much that professionals as people are better or more high-minded, but that the professions had a role in 19th and 20th Century global society that strikes me as distinctive. To some extent, electricians, plumbers and other craftsmen who also needed special training and often forms of certification (still do) fit into the model rather than challenge it.

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By: Gavin Weaire https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/01/11/apres-le-perturbation/comment-page-1/#comment-26867 Mon, 14 Jan 2013 16:45:48 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2208#comment-26867 Then, to push back, how do you distinguish that from a claim that a lawyer, as a person, is *better*, more pure and high-minded, than an electrician? Because I see very little possibility of any such claim enjoying any kind of success in the 21st century, and, again, I’d look for a different point of departure.

Incidentally, while I don’t disagree in substance with the account that you offer (not qualified to do so!) as someone who works on the exact other chronological end of the process, it strikes me as a little foreshortened and underestimating the degree to which a lot of this is visible in the rather different economic and social circumstances of the 1st century B.C.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/01/11/apres-le-perturbation/comment-page-1/#comment-26866 Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:49:56 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2208#comment-26866 Part of the problem is that the unappetizing attitudes were bundled in with some roles that were important. Chief among them, to repeat a point that Louis Menand and others have made recently, that professionalization at the end of the 19th Century and into the 20th, was very consciously meant as a counter to the marketplace on the grounds that the work that the professions did had an importance that needed to be secured against a pure market–that law, medicine, teaching, and all the other professions that came along in their wake needed to be done in a way that wasn’t just about profit, that they needed a value system that was both an internal code or ethos for practicioners and a commandment to public service.

So in becoming “just jobs”, the professions themselves have lost something–they are increasingly less and less “good jobs”–but the wider society has also lost something. I think it’s the latter that’s particularly important to recapture–that we still have a need for medicine, law, teaching, counseling and so on to have a sense of higher mission and to have some kind of autonomy to pursue it.

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By: Gavin Weaire https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2013/01/11/apres-le-perturbation/comment-page-1/#comment-26863 Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:21:36 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2208#comment-26863 As usual, this is a somewhat fuzzy and tentative thought. But I feel that this post on some level is assuming a clear-cut notion of “the professions” that perhaps does not actually apply in everyday American society.

The old solidarity of the professions (I realize that this is an obvious observation) depended on there being a tightly restricted list of things that counted as professions which were sharply defined against other occupations that did not count as professions and carried much less prestige. An interesting question: at what point did it become normal English to commend a skilled tradesperson as “doing a professional job” of fixing a burst pipe or whatever?

Note: I’m not saying that actual social practice has necessarily changed all that much. Male doctors may well marry female lawyers at close to the rate at which male doctors used to marry the daughters of male lawyers. They would however now marry journalists and members other groups that once upon a time did not have the apparatus of professional education attached to them, or, like IT people, did not actually exist.

But I think that, conceptually, Americans now mostly inhabit a world in which what were once professions are *jobs* – good jobs, jobs that call for a great deal of further education, but not categorically different from other jobs and therefore not to be conflated with one another. A doctor self-identifies and is identified by others as “a doctor,” not as “a doctor, which is to say a professional.”

Solidarity among “professions” is therefore perhaps a non-starter without bringing back the array of social attitudes which supported it once upon a time – which is (a) unappetizing and (b) fortunately almost certainly impossible (see your previous post). So perhaps it would be better to look elsewhere as a point of departure.

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