Comments on: Do Liberals and Elites Hate Teachers? https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Sun, 23 Sep 2012 08:25:23 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Dr. John David Leaver https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10828 Sun, 23 Sep 2012 08:25:23 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10828 I like the emphasis on education being seen by liberals as a fix to societal problems. I’m a self-professed liberal, but failures to reform society in all kinds of inclusive ways should not have us dump on teachers as the source of that failure, which is in fact multi-faceted. I’m not sure many liberals have moved on from Johnson’s stymied Great Society, where governmental institutions (teachers still had respect back then) were expected to solve problems. The issue, it seems to me, is the lack of any other mildly progressive institutions in US society that might address problems we can all identify.

Secondary education is, as Tim says, mostly about social reproduction; but even there it often fails in public schools. This is because so many schools are so disruptive of learning processes needed for individuals to do even as well as their parents once did. Conservatives, as so often they do, hold that kids are disrespectful, disruptive, and apathetic and they appear to believe that in some mysterious way that lets them, if not society, off the hook. As in so many Conservative mantras, therefore, students (often from so-called minority backgrounds) deserve the — what in Britain are called — bog-standard educations they receive. But kids are . . . well obviously . . . kids. It has to be the adults’ fault it we cannot organize schools that actually educate.

I work in a blue-collar community in a High School that has survived No Child Left behind (about 70% so-called ‘minority’), because Georgia came up with its own stick to beat its schools (compatible with ‘Race to the Top’). What has made a difference is a new principal who is strong on discipline. The kids come in and they want to do as little as possible. This applies to a minority of teachers too. The lazier students have to be forced to learn in ways that they will eventually realize benefit them. They are still under paternalistic guidance (or should be somewhere) so this is possible. In a large number of cases, however, this approach means winning over a student’s parent(s).

Where that isn’t possible, I feel relieved of a lot of responsibility. When one factors that reality into the picture, it is clear that we are at a stage where teachers have to be the social workers as well as instructors that some naive liberals always thought they could so easily be. That reality is tough, and accounts for a lot of the unimaginative book-work condemned so roundly by those who do not seem to realize education at this level is chiefly about human relationships and minimum competency tests, and not only about insights and excellence (parts of many elitist mantras).

But with a doctorate I am well-paid. About the equivalent of an associate Professor of history in a respectable state-institution. I wouldn’t want to do my job as a recent graduate from any of the often poor teacher preparation programs I have a passing acquaintance with, however. Now that’s where George Bernard Shaw’s rebuke really stings: ‘those who can’t teach, teach teachers’.

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By: Withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10631 Tue, 18 Sep 2012 04:46:19 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10631 Barry: If I don’t think the cohort of teachers is capable of delivering value of more than X, then I don’t think that lowering their salary from (X + n), where n = parasitic rent, to X, will lower the outcomes.

This is, of course, an interesting inversion of the debate on the effects of increasing marginal tax rates on the productivity of entrepeneurs, millionaires, etc. (E.g., I take the left to be more sympathetic to the financial incentives of pay for teachers than for millionaires, and that the right reverses those sympathies.) I would say, however, that reducing the parasitic rent of teachers’ unions is more analogous to eliminating crony-capitalism tax-loopholes for the politically well-connected–and favor reducing both.

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By: Barry https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10620 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:04:21 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10620 BTW, one of the special pieces of hypocrisy being called out is the sheer gall of pundits demanding more ‘accountability’ from teachers. People who’d almost all have been sacked years ago if being right were an actual job requirement.

Note that one could make the argument that pleasing the Powers that Be is the actual job requirement, in which case pundits fall under the heading of frauds and liars, in which case it’s still amazing to see them call for ‘accountability’.

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By: Barry https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10619 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:57:34 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10619 CarlD, that’s if the proposed systems work, and AFAIK they don’t (both theoretically, and because they’re implemented by a neoliberal movement whose first goals are to break teachers’ unions and then to loot public education).

Withywindle: “Teaching undergrads who wanted to be teachers, and realizing the cohort was neither very bright nor very prepared, distinctly lowered my estimation of the profession. I may not be the only one.”

So if we cut pay, cut benefits, make the jobs much more insecure, eliminate the very idea of an actual career, we will get a group which is:

a) Better.
b) Worse.

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By: CarlD https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10616 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:30:41 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10616 “What they threaten is not the loss of job security, but the professional discretion and skill of good teachers.”

Just to contribute to the points already made – because education is widely expected to fix poverty, inequality and racism, and since structurally it just can’t, after decades of ‘failure’ there’s all kinds of cya built into the dynamics. So it has become dramatically more important to intercept disconfirmingly bad teaching/outcomes than to enable good ones, which are doomed to come up short of unrealistic expectations anyway. And this is what lockstep assessment systems do. They clean out the bottom at the expense of the top.

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By: Julian Long https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10585 Mon, 17 Sep 2012 00:30:09 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10585 Tim, I think your last paragraph gets it exactly right.

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By: lemmy caution https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10554 Sun, 16 Sep 2012 05:12:36 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10554 I hate the anti teacher union stuff from liberals. Paradoxically, I think it stems from a broken record trust that education is the answer to poverty, inequality and racism. Somehow. Our education system is about as good as it is going to be. If liberals want to deal with poverty, inequality and racism they need to bite the bullet and deal with poverty, inequality and racism.

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By: Laura https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10550 Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:08:40 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10550 Withy, I had that experience as well, but as a K-12 teacher now, what I see is that the less bright ones don’t last. Whether they do harm in the first year or two that they’re on the job is unknown, but the profession itself mostly manages to weed out the truly awful–mostly. There are places where that’s not true.

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By: Withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10546 Sat, 15 Sep 2012 04:12:36 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10546 Teaching undergrads who wanted to be teachers, and realizing the cohort was neither very bright nor very prepared, distinctly lowered my estimation of the profession. I may not be the only one.

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By: Hestal https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2012/09/13/do-liberals-and-elites-hate-teachers/comment-page-1/#comment-10530 Fri, 14 Sep 2012 00:02:46 +0000 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=2081#comment-10530 I agree with Laura’s comments, and I should add that some of my friends agree as well. I taught in high school a few years before I left because of low pay, but several of my friends taught until they retired. During their careers many so-called “reforms” were made to the system and my friends would tell me, in real time, what was wrong with them. Diane Ravitch, who has made a career working as an education historian and in George H. W. Bush’s education department. She published a book a couple of years ago called, “The death and life of the great American school system.” In it she admits that the reforms she witnessed, and helped develop in some cases, have all been failures. Her complaints are almost verbatim as those my friends expressed over their long careers. When I retired in 1995, I considered returning to high school math teaching and I took a six-week assignment in one of the Plano, Texas high schools. The chairman of the math department was taking a medical leave of absence. I was shocked by what I saw. I won’t go into it here, but the children were being shortchanged in a big way.

In any case, my friends and I think that it is not too hard to put things right. We weren’t too far off during the middle of the last century, so we can return to that approach. Things would be improved if we left a lot of the student’s education up to him, and if we arranged things so that students helped each other. These goals can be realized by giving students age 13 through 25 important and definite duties to perform that involve helping us govern.

In my working life I was a consumer of the school system product. It was just fine. The evaluation systems we use are the problem, not the kids.

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