Comments on: I Would Have Had My Great Books, Too, If It Weren’t For Those Meddling Hippies https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Thu, 17 Feb 2011 00:45:30 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Brutus https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7587 Thu, 17 Feb 2011 00:45:30 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7587 Lots more to think about in this discussion, but I’ll limit my comments.

My food analogy may well be imperfect. I wonder, however, if the “explosion of fine dining and more widely available wholesome food” mentioned by Western Dave is not a combined effect of bourgeois interests and an emerging niche market rather than a widespread refinement of taste.

Dave C says, “it is more difficult now for the intellectual elites (in the academy or outside) to confront persistent anti-intellectualism from a position of (assumed/presumed) power.” Quite true, I think, and this accounts in part for why intellectual elites have suffered a failure of nerve and inability to withstand sloppy criticism from the gallery. Charges of snobbery and elitism find such receptive ears, ya know. So expertise is now mostly irrelevant, even when some TV news channel goes in search of an authority to buttress a story.

Western Dave’s appeal to pragmatism, namely, that only humanities types can be expected to possess the necessary wherewithal to recognize certain (criminal) human behavior patterns, is a wise observation, but then, I would never have expected a technocrat to do that anyway.

Finally, the interaction of cultural canon with realpolitik is an awfully big nut to crack, and Prof. Burke’s four initial objections already put me in a tailspin. For example, I’m pretty unclear what distinguishes nonnuanced canon from nuanced canon. The degree of proscription? Considering how completely canon of even the most conservative sort has been ignored as irrelevant or useless, this seems pretty far off the central issue.

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By: Western Dave https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7586 Wed, 16 Feb 2011 19:19:40 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7586 I think the way out of the mess is to start with what kinds of questions do the Humanities answer (or as we say on our curriculum maps in the K-12 biz, “What are the Essential Questions?”). A clearer articulation of these questions makes it easier to discuss both what should and should not be in the canon and what is non-canonical but worth studying, and why what humanists do is important. My favorite example of this is in the financial industry. The recent frauds weren’t necessarily discoverable by the lawyers, but they were easily discoverable by folks used to trying separate fiction from reality and who understand the concept of the unreliable narrator. Also, math geeks trained to ask the right questions (are these returns possible?) actually caught Madoff a couple of years before he got busted but the lawyers insisted the paper work was OK. In other words, the Humanities teach us how to be skeptical of other people and a variety of ways to evaluate their claims. The Humanities do other important things as well, like teach us how to relate to people who aren’t like us (empathy), and how to understand ourselves better in all our multiple roles (worker, parent, child, etc. etc.).

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7585 Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:47:57 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7585 I think this is an extremely good point: that a shorthand definition of “quality” and a kind of consensus canon that rests upon historically-derived understandings of what constitutes “great literature” serves an important political purpose, a bridge to a wider public which could have the potential to re-initialize a broader conversation about humanistic knowledge.

However, a few problems that I can see with this proposition:

1) It’s not clear to me that there is any ground on which a non-nuanced canon of “great books” can actually satisfy some of the more aggressively hostile dismissals of academic humanists because those aren’t really motivated by a rejection of the specific content of academic humanism, but instead by deeper social cleavages. E.g., potentially, it doesn’t really matter what the eggheads decide they like, certain kinds of hostility towards them precedes any specific critical commitments. So an English Department could en masse convert to an exclusive diet of Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens and Faulkner and find themselves no more beloved than when they were also speaking about the experimental novels of late 19th Century Filipino millennarians.

2) It’s also not clear whether you can get any kind of meaningful cultural credit for having a non-nuanced canon unless you also adopt a non-nuanced command-driven practice of interpretation, e.g., that instruction largely insists of a lecturer telling students what a great work says, why it is great, and then testing students for knowledge of content and for the ability to repeat a concise description of the greatness of canon. Since you mention Weimar, I can’t help but think of the next step: this is, in some sense, how the Nazis approached aesthetics: the interpretative interior of praise-worthy art and architecture didn’t matter, only that you acquired, displayed and declared “greatness”.

3) It’s also not clear to me that the people who feel the most populist anger about reports of cultural studies scholars studying comic books, pornography or video games actually feel any real affection for “Great Books” canons, and in fact see those as the tool of another, more unspecified, group of snobs and gatekeepers. Look at the sort of discourse that surrounds Sarah Palin, where cultural elites spend a certain amount of time looking for “gotchas” where she bluffs at knowledge of very traditional canonical touchstones and then receives a lot of sympathy from a certain kind of populist who also feels persecuted for not knowing who Hamlet is or remembers hating The Mill on the Floss when they were forced to read it. In a way, the fight over the Great Books canon is more of an intramural scrimmage between two fractions of the cultural elite. The wider fight is over whether there is in fact ANY specialized knowledge or expertise which enhances how we read or use or make culture.

4) On this last point, though, this is definitely a place where the “crisis of the humanities” comes back to roost in our own nests–because from another direction, many humanists have spent the last thirty years either subverting that idea themselves OR in creating a dense rhetorical and expressive practice intended to signify expertise without really believing substantively that there could be such a thing. So on some level, I think you are very much right. The tricky move is that we have to both engage a wider public from a different vantage point and yet in such an engagement convince them that there is something about our knowledge or practice which gives us expert insight or legitimate authority about culture.

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By: David C https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7584 Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:11:09 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7584 t even read Shakespeare! Do you even know who Milton is??!" I don't want to overstate the effectiveness of that position—but I also don't think we should ignore the role that it (and intellectual snobbery in general) helped to play in building our top-notch university system in the first place. The accusation of the left-handed-lesbian-Inuit-factory-worker-self-discovery-seminar is indeed pathetically misinformed…. but it is politically powerful. I work in state university in a conservative part of Ohio. This is a VERY different environment from those college towns in the East Coast (where I worked for years) or those other oases of open-mindedness (Madison, etc.) My students are mostly apathetic and occasionally inspire-able (moments I live for!); but Burke's and for that matter Edmundson's entire willingness to even think about the topic is anathema to much of the surrounding population. And, facing this hostility, state universities are eagerly refashioning themselves into professional sports teams, business-technical training webinar hosts, and patent-generating corporate labs. So I'll just throw this out there (and I do not claim to have an answer myself): Do we NEED a non-nuanced canon (or a command-model of greatness or a Big Stick of "indisputable" quality) politically, even though it may not suit our own personal, intellectual, educational, or even moral agendas? If not… then what simple sound-bite do we have to replace quality or the canon in the barroom brawl of American politics and statehouse budgeting? *The phrase is actually from a play by Johst; my sincere apologies for Godwinizing: my lame excuse is that I'm a historian of Germany, and so it's hopefully understandable that I see Weimar everywhere.]]> I’m also just coming to this exchange; and it’s been great to read it (and to read Edmundson’s original essay in the Chronicle). This is one of the things that I love about this blog: thanks everyone. My own intellectual sympathies and personal inclinations (“Watchmen” stands at the pinnacle of my own private canon) push me unerringly towards agreement and head-nodding as I read TBs thoughtful critique.
But I would add one major caveat, namely, I agree that a multi-directional, broad-minded approach to criticism, literature and even culture is the way to go in the company of reasoned, informed people who care (like Burke and Edmundson and college students and passionate amazon.com reviewers). But there is a wider America “out there.” I feel badly about hijacking this sophisticated reflection on culture and dragging it into politics, but I do think that “politics” is an implicit backdrop here (and in Edmundon’s original essay, too.) But politics is more than marching students from the ’60s or earring-ed professors from the ’80s. The apocryphal Göring* position (“when I hear the word ‘culture’ I reach for my gun”) has been a persistent strain of our national ethic for a very, very long time, but it seems to me (based on not just on recent electoral rhetoric but on the two-decades long jihad against public funding of state universities) to be on the march. There are all sorts of reasons for this: but one, perhaps, is that it is more difficult now for the intellectual elites (in the academy or outside) to confront persistent anti-intellectualism from a position of (assumed/presumed) power.
In other words: a short, easy, powerful (?) response in decades past was “Oh, you don’t see the need for a literature program at the University of Nebraska, do you?! Spoken like a true philistine—I’ll bet you don’t even read Shakespeare! Do you even know who Milton is??!” I don’t want to overstate the effectiveness of that position—but I also don’t think we should ignore the role that it (and intellectual snobbery in general) helped to play in building our top-notch university system in the first place.
The accusation of the left-handed-lesbian-Inuit-factory-worker-self-discovery-seminar is indeed pathetically misinformed…. but it is politically powerful. I work in state university in a conservative part of Ohio. This is a VERY different environment from those college towns in the East Coast (where I worked for years) or those other oases of open-mindedness (Madison, etc.) My students are mostly apathetic and occasionally inspire-able (moments I live for!); but Burke’s and for that matter Edmundson’s entire willingness to even think about the topic is anathema to much of the surrounding population. And, facing this hostility, state universities are eagerly refashioning themselves into professional sports teams, business-technical training webinar hosts, and patent-generating corporate labs.
So I’ll just throw this out there (and I do not claim to have an answer myself):

Do we NEED a non-nuanced canon (or a command-model of greatness or a Big Stick of “indisputable” quality) politically, even though it may not suit our own personal, intellectual, educational, or even moral agendas?
If not… then what simple sound-bite do we have to replace quality or the canon in the barroom brawl of American politics and statehouse budgeting?

*The phrase is actually from a play by Johst; my sincere apologies for Godwinizing: my lame excuse is that I’m a historian of Germany, and so it’s hopefully understandable that I see Weimar everywhere.

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By: Western Dave https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7583 Tue, 15 Feb 2011 21:48:58 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7583 Brutus says:
Restated by way of analogy, our collective ability to cook and our tastes for fine dining (to say nothing of our health) are considerably diminished in an era where fast and prepared foods (populist fare by definition) are the rule.
You might want to rethink that analogy since there has been an explosion of fine dining and more widely available wholesome food. I live in a relatively poor section of Philadelphia and have access to multiple farmer’s markets. Further, grocery stores that 10 years ago stocked little to no vegetables or fresh/healthy food much less organic anything are now filled with quality food products that were unthinkable from the 1950s-1990s. Not to mention localvore movements, urban gardening, and food equity movements that have gained significant traction in the last few years.

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By: Brutus https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7582 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 21:32:00 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7582 We disagree about the ability to recognize quality. Have you seen how people view paintings in museums or hear classical music? And whatever excellence can be found in pop culture is quite beside the point. You have reiterated your point that to make a criticism requires offering a solution. All well and good enough.

Then you send me on an errand to identify a supposed Golden Era. I don’t believe in that halcyon past any more than you apparently do, so there is no need for me to rise in defense of it. My point, supplementing Edmundson’s, is that we’ve turned our attentions away from canon, which is say, the past (golden or not). His starting point was those few still reading; mine is the general population. Restated by way of analogy, our collective ability to cook and our tastes for fine dining (to say nothing of our health) are considerably diminished in an era where fast and prepared foods (populist fare by definition) are the rule.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7580 Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:11:36 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7580 Brutus:

Since I don’t think we’ve lost our collective OR expert ability to recognize quality, and that a good deal of “popular culture” is actually quite excellent, I have no desire to hoist that monkey because I don’t see that there’s really much of a problem, or at least not the problem that Edmundson perceives. I think the question of how to talk about quality within literary criticism is an interesting one, mind you, but it’s one of many interesting questions and can be explored in a relatively leisurely way.

Edmundson thinks otherwise. My thought is that if you’re going to excoriate other people for failing to hoist monkeys but aren’t willing to demonstrate proper monkey-lifting techniques, then you’re the one with the problem.

You might want to consider the basis of your intuition that some past “us” used to regularly devote most of their cultural attention to what you view as wholesome, quality stuff: what exact historical moment and which exact historically real public are you thinking about? Here’s a story to consider which might begin to complicate your assumptions.

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By: Brutus https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7578 Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:19:06 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7578 t really give any guidance about how it ought to be done other than the inference that it once was done properly.</i> Americans feels so much impatience in their needs (intellectual or otherwise) that to recognize a problem conjures the implicit responsibility to solve it, and quickly! So Prof. Burke at the end of the blog post calls for a system of evaluation then admits it's too big a task. Nice trick hoisting that monkey onto someone else's back. Back to the issue at hand: failure to judge/critique/evaluate/analyze. I find it blunderingly obvious that outside the academy, where students are compelled to read from prescribed lists, the general public has moved on to other cultural offerings that have largely displaced the canon (which some of us still hold dear) but yet require little or no real engagement. Although one can cook up quite an elaborate thematic treatment of Lady Gaga or Harry Potter or Freddy Krueger, these presentations arrive predigested and merely titillate the senses rather than feed the soul. Whereas there exists no commandment that one's soul must be nourished by wholesome, quality stuff (eat your beets!), the tsunami of populism that has accompanied the electronic age (commencing with radio) has driven cultural values inexorably down to the point that great books (and other media) no longer exhibit much gravitational pull on our attentions and in fact seem positively alien, since they don't goose us every few pages or minutes. Many of us have simply lost the capacity to hear history speak to us, much less fit ourselves into the context it provides. I'm not trying to restate Edmundson, but his complaint makes far more sense to me than does turning his argument back onto him.]]> I’m quite late to the discussion, which is both interesting and frustrating for including so many blind alleys and tangential picking of nits. So let me respond to Prof. Burke’s summary from the previous comment:

he thinks the work of judging the quality of culture is important, that he thinks contemporary readers do not do this work, but that he doesn’t really give any guidance about how it ought to be done other than the inference that it once was done properly.

Americans feels so much impatience in their needs (intellectual or otherwise) that to recognize a problem conjures the implicit responsibility to solve it, and quickly! So Prof. Burke at the end of the blog post calls for a system of evaluation then admits it’s too big a task. Nice trick hoisting that monkey onto someone else’s back.

Back to the issue at hand: failure to judge/critique/evaluate/analyze. I find it blunderingly obvious that outside the academy, where students are compelled to read from prescribed lists, the general public has moved on to other cultural offerings that have largely displaced the canon (which some of us still hold dear) but yet require little or no real engagement. Although one can cook up quite an elaborate thematic treatment of Lady Gaga or Harry Potter or Freddy Krueger, these presentations arrive predigested and merely titillate the senses rather than feed the soul. Whereas there exists no commandment that one’s soul must be nourished by wholesome, quality stuff (eat your beets!), the tsunami of populism that has accompanied the electronic age (commencing with radio) has driven cultural values inexorably down to the point that great books (and other media) no longer exhibit much gravitational pull on our attentions and in fact seem positively alien, since they don’t goose us every few pages or minutes. Many of us have simply lost the capacity to hear history speak to us, much less fit ourselves into the context it provides.

I’m not trying to restate Edmundson, but his complaint makes far more sense to me than does turning his argument back onto him.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7573 Tue, 08 Feb 2011 20:49:00 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7573 Thanks, Alonzo. That’s very helpful and interesting, and (I think as in the last time we spoke about Edmundson) you certainly persuade me that his convictions are honestly meant and passionately felt.

But let’s leave aside the culture war stuff, and here’s what I still think remains:

That he thinks the work of judging the quality of culture is important, that he thinks contemporary readers do not do this work, but that he doesn’t really give any guidance about how it ought to be done other than the inference that it once was done properly.

So I think my objection to him (and some other critics like Mark Bauerlein) remains: that they imply that a kind of work which is profoundly difficult both in technical and philosophical terms is in fact easy to do, that there are no authentically skeptical questions about the value of that kind of critical effort which might be asked.

I also think, honestly, that if I were to complain of the narcissism of others that I would either work very hard to demonstrate that I had found a way to overcome that tendency, or confess with some humility that I, too, am a child of my place and time. I don’t think he does either. To do the former, he has to demonstrate how his view of contemporary readers is not just a stereotype that conveniently confirms his own contrasting virtues. I really think one obligation of an intellectual is to be suspicious of our own perceptions.

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By: Neb Namwen https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2011/02/01/i-would-have-had-my-great-books-too-if-it-werent-for-those-meddling-hippies/comment-page-1/#comment-7571 Mon, 07 Feb 2011 18:15:42 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=1496#comment-7571 Have you read J.R.R. Tolkien: Author of the Century by Tom Shippey? I highly recommend it, and it speaks to a lot of these issues as particularly concerning the literary establishment’s cool reaction to Tolkien.

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