Comments on: Grades as Information https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Mon, 02 Mar 2009 07:29:08 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Nancy Lebovitz https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6231 Mon, 02 Mar 2009 07:29:08 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6231 I’m plugging Mathsemantics, a book about a company test to find out whether applicants could make sense out of numbers.

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By: Jonathan Dresner https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6210 Thu, 26 Feb 2009 03:21:38 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6210 I still think the letter of recommendation serves much the same purpose. Perhaps all students should have two faculty letters — preferably by the faculty who had them the most, or in the most advanced courses — attached to their transcripts. Yeah, they’d be general purpose, and probably a bit of boilerplate, but it would put some real context behind the grades.

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By: David Chudzicki https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6208 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:55:51 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6208 I think some of your arguments won’t apply in the case of graduate school admissions– they’re generally care most about classes in a particular department, often receive applications from a much smaller body of schools, and have lots of time to observe the trends. And since they do use grades (to varying degrees), grades matter.

But maybe the worst effect of the grading differences we’re talking about is when students have to choose between a course/professor that will be the better experience, or teach them more, and the one that will give a better grade. You often hear that grades aren’t the point, so the choice should be easy. But there are tradeoffs here.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6207 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:56:13 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6207 Right. But if you really really felt the need for such a test, you could make one–and it seems to me that someone who says, “I can’t do anything with the information on transcripts because it lacks the specificity I require” is precisely someone who might be able to make a test that meets those two requirements *rather* than demanding that somehow I do that on his behalf by elaborately standardizing my pedagogy in alignment with thousands of my colleagues.

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By: SamChevre https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6206 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 21:29:09 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6206 If a corporation or other end-user wanted an exam which stood independently from the grades provided by professors at an institution, they need look no further than the LSATs, MCATs, or GREs. Problem solved: an employer who trusts those as metrics more than they trust a transcript from a particular institutions need only require applicants to take those tests.

And I don???? think there???? anything stopping a corporation that wants to construct its own exams. Google rather famously has something along these lines for its applicants.

No no no no no, shrieks the HR geek in my head.

You can give job applicants a test, if and only if you meet one of two conditions:
The test has a direct and demonstrable connection to the specific job.
The test does not systematically give higher scores to one group than another in any protected category (sex and ethnicity.)

That’s the general understanding of the “Duke Power Standard”, from the Griggs vs Duke Power case in which it was articulated.

Colleges aren’t bound by that rule in selecting students, and transcripts are not a forbidden thing for employers to check. It’s one of the rules that tremendously enhances the power of colleges.

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By: ASearcy https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6205 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:32:04 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6205 I’ve been reading this discussion of grading with interest. While I agree that grades can’t be perfectly measured against one another, I wanted to point out a legitimate complaint in Megan McArdle’s entry, one which I believe has been to some degree overlooked. My interpretation of the complaint was not that sliding grading was unfair to employers looking for a good standard for hiring but that it was unfair to the student/applicant who got a lower grade because their performance wasn’t up to expectations set only to him/her. To illustrate, here’s the story that I presume is going on the critics’ heads:

Susie is a hard-working student with a lot of potential. Susie does very well in her classes in general and her professor, with whom she has taken many classes, notices this. One weekend her professor assigns a take-home essay exam. This same weekend, it turns out Susie has to do a Physics problem set and practice for her play. In addition, she goes to a party Saturday for her roommate’s birthday. Susie doesn’t do as good of a job as she could under other circumstances, but she pulls out a decent effort and gets a B.

Clara is in the same class. Clara is a bit of a slacker. Clara doesn’t do anything particularly different this weekend, and turns in an exam of about the same caliber as Susie. Because the professor has lower expectations for Clara, she gets an B+ on the exam.

I believe that the complaint leveled in McArdle’s blog is that this is unfair – Susie’s being punished for her general level of potential rather than treated on the same level as Clara. Presumably in almost any situation, this wouldn’t have any long-term impact on either student. Susie’s overall record wouldn’t suffer too much and maybe the slight unfairness is worth it to send the message to Susie, “watch out Susie, you can’t let your extracurricular activities and partying get in the way of academic work.” I think it probably it is ok to grade (to some degree) based on a student’s potential in order to better communicate with that student how good/bad their recent efforts are. I just wanted to point out that the original complaint was about fairness and not about the effectiveness of grades as a measurement for hiring.

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By: G. Weaire https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6204 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:15:56 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6204 Reading over the comments to that thread, I had the impression that some of the commenters were thinking in these terms.

1) What you assess is a specific body of technical knowledge that builds from class to class.

2) All the students enter the class at approximately the same level. If you’re in whatever 201, you can be expected to know what was in Whatever 102. This would, presumably, map neatly onto years – a junior should be taking courses at X-level to prepare them for taking Y-level courses as a senior.

(At least, that’s what the comments implied to me.) There are, obviously, aspects of US college education that work like this. But there are also areas that cannot be shoehorned into this model.

Music again: a college music department may teach students who start at radically different levels as performers. Some will have been playing their instrument since early childhood and have already played in competitions, etc. These enter as freshman but are in no sense beginners. Others are genuine beginners; others are in between. The genuine beginners are usually non-majors, and the advanced are often (but by no means always) majors. Even music majors can vary considerably.

Under these circumstances, every student has to be assessed as a performer on how much progress that particular student makes, not against some absolute yardstick.

This is an extreme case, but lesser versions of the same phenomenon crop up elsewhere. E.g. the survey course that counts for both Gen Ed (or whatever) and for a major. The compromise there can be (usually is?) that, for a major, it’s an easy course.

I wonder if those commenters were tacitly assuming the sort of thing one can get in the hard sciences, with separate courses for majors and non-majors, so that they’re never in the same room for a science class. I also wonder if they’d prefer the older British model of a highly structured and specialized curriculum that culminates in high-stakes exams at the very end that test everything you’re supposed to have learned over your years.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6203 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:29:00 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6203 If a corporation or other end-user wanted an exam which stood independently from the grades provided by professors at an institution, they need look no further than the LSATs, MCATs, or GREs. Problem solved: an employer who trusts those as metrics more than they trust a transcript from a particular institutions need only require applicants to take those tests.

And I don’t think there’s anything stopping a corporation that wants to construct its own exams. Google rather famously has something along these lines for its applicants.

Maybe the fact that most corporations choose neither option suggests that transcripts and rough metrics of school quality are perfectly adequate informational signals for the purposes of most employers, and that when they want more information about applicants, they precisely do NOT want a test, but instead something more about the applicant’s less measurable qualities–their ambition, their drive, their ability to work with others, their ability to improvise. Which is where letters of reference, interviews, internships, trial positions, in-house training programs and so on come into play.

The idea that universities need to have another tier of mandatory national testing for graduates is much beloved among one constituency of assessment advocates, but I think this has little to do with assessment: for many of the people most obsessed with the idea, this is really a back-door strategy for enforcing disciplinary canons again. More on the role of canons in the humanities in a main post today.

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By: dmerkow https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6202 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 02:53:07 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6202 Isn’t one of the problems that employers confront is that they have been strongly dissuaded from using exams to test for qualified employees? I’ve been led to believe that once upon a time most major corporations did quite a bit of testing of their candidates in additional to our current transcript + letters of recommendation system (in its academic or real world varieties). However, this system was seen as have a discriminatory potential toward certain groups and thus were mostly eliminated (the same logic has been used to attack the SAT and other standardized tests).

Wouldn’t be easier to allow corporations (or whomever) to give exams in which candidates show what they can do rather than have to figure out whether an A from one big state school is the same as an A at another big state school.

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By: Jonathan Dresner https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2009/02/24/grades-as-information/comment-page-1/#comment-6201 Wed, 25 Feb 2009 02:47:04 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=731#comment-6201 Isn’t this what letters of recommendation are for? To elucidate the specific skills and strengths of candidates? And to discuss them in the context of the total body of students at that institution and the other institutions at which the instructor has taught (this is how you get some standardization: the number of schools from which instructors are drawn is really smaller than the number of schools….)

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