Comments on: Nationalism, in Passing https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:47:35 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Cobb https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/comment-page-1/#comment-5977 Tue, 11 Nov 2008 22:47:35 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=660#comment-5977 I can’t help but notice something unique about the very impulse towards cognizing a possible transitory nature of nationalism or of religion. So I’ll throw this out there. Isn’t some basis of what we conservatives lament as moral relativism in multiculturalism in fact a liberal stipulation that native populations and cultures have a right to their own conservatism?

When we subordinate the national narratives of America to those of other tribes, cultures, nations are we not saying in essence that ‘Urdu Only’ is OK?

If with culture than why not with language, why not with religion, why not with whatever organic form of government arises? Why not a ‘real Zimbabwe’? Why not a ‘real America’ for the same reasons?

It is our fetish, we educated literate sophisticates, to suggest that at our level of Maslowe’s pyramid eventually all will grow to see the same vistas in the same way – some accord with reality must eventually accompany personal, social, national self-realization. But maybe in the very inability to determine the ‘real America’ we must concede that perhaps there are nothing but tribes everywhere. In which case all our speculation is just projections and navel-gazing.

Unless we intervene.

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By: moldbug https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/comment-page-1/#comment-5876 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 01:00:22 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=660#comment-5876 peter55,

So the difference is that the old Irish population was unwilling to be governed from London, and the new Irish population is willing to be governed from Brussels? Gee, what do you think brought that about? And what do you think would happen to a present-day Irish movement that tried to oppose the EU with bombs? How much love would it get, for example, from the Grauniad?

And isn’t it funny how “Eire” (spare us, please, the Gaelic kitsch) agreed to join a “customs union” and now finds itself a province of a superstate, with its own constitution and (almost) national anthem? If you care, which I suspect you don’t, you can read all about it here. (Richard North is one of the few people in the world who writes about government as it actually is. Sadly, there is no American equivalent.)

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By: peter55 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/comment-page-1/#comment-5874 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:19:52 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=660#comment-5874 You utter some fine-sounding rhetorical phrases, Moldbug, but factually accurate they sure aren’t. There is a world of difference between being the subject of an imperialist agressor, with an economically-rapacious colonial rule imposed with extreme violence on an unwilling and resisting population, as Ireland was over the three centuries before partition, and voluntarily choosing to join a customs union, as Eire did in joining the European Economic Community (as it was at the time) 35 years ago. I can’t see how it is possible to have a meaningful discussion with someone apparently unable to tell the difference between these two situations.

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By: moldbug https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/comment-page-1/#comment-5873 Fri, 31 Oct 2008 00:08:13 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=660#comment-5873 hestal,

Your fanaticism lends itself well to an inadvertently comical description of your own party. Where do you think “public policy” comes from, anyway? The Wasilla Assemblies of God? What is power if not the practice of making policy? You are pretty much right – you just have the labels reversed.

Read about, say, this, and then tell us who wears the pants in this country. “Tyranno” indeed. How, exactly, did California get from Racist Central to Obama Country? If you were a young person in California in 1963 and you wanted to be a big shot when you grew up, which side of this issue would you have been on? For quite some time in this country, the future has belonged to the left. Which means that the left has been the party of amoral, cynical, Machiavellian power seekers.

For example: Billy Ayers. Do you want to talk about Billy Ayers? Because we can talk about Billy Ayers. I am definitely ready to have that conversation.

For example: 40 years ago, the major university in the city in which I live was taken over by racist armed gangs. They refused to back down. The university was admirably steadfast for a while, but the state government refused to challenge them. Eventually the system backed down, and the thugs’ complete agenda was acceded to. Now they are the establishment. And the event is celebrated in the local newspaper – by a friendly reporter, of course.

What would you say if Cornell and Yale and Harvard and every other university in the country was captured by an equivalent conservative force – the Campus Crusade for Christ, perhaps, displaying a new Matthew Arnold muscularity? In association with the Mongol biker gang, the Aryan Brotherhood, and Sarah’s Army, a camo-wearing, paintball-trained brigade of coed Christian virgins? Perhaps your “Tyranno” party would have to be renamed – could any name other than “Nazi” be sufficiently evocative?

The principal problem with American attempts to resist progressive government over the last century is that conservatives have never once considered the possibility that, in order to survive or even succeed, they have to be as ruthless, amoral, and hypocritical as their enemies. Of course, since American conservatives are hardly angels or philosophers, perhaps this is a good thing.

Moreover, you do have truth on your side in one important regard: the basically Puritan doctrines of New England, a modern version of which you espouse (you are a Puritan through the Unitarians and Transcendentalists), have been the politically dominant tradition of the United States since its founding. It is the conservative national myth which is the forgery.

Conservatism is mostly a post-1945 invention, although it inherits some mythic tropes from the jingoistic, quasi-fascist post-Reconstruction creed of American national unity. (Bronzes from this period, sporting rifles and flags galore, can be seen in every urban park in the US, so do we know it existed.) In general, the progressive critique of conservatism is perfectly accurate, except for the little fact that progressives run Washington and have since the ’30s. Yes, even when there is a Republican in the White House. The conservative monster is a harmless scare puppet. There isn’t really a Sarah’s Army.

Every thirty or forty years, New England reaches out and tries to turn everyone in the country into a Boston Puritan. When it doesn’t get its way, it can be quite rough. But when anyone gets rough back, the Puritans are mightily offended. Consider history’s treatment of the Southern church bombers, and compare it to the terrorism of Billy Ayers, Nelson Mandela, John Brown, etc. Some of us are opposed to pipe bombs no matter who’s setting them.

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By: moldbug https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/comment-page-1/#comment-5872 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:33:26 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=660#comment-5872 What’s especially funny is the Whig technique of exploiting nationalism as a stalking horse for liberal imperialism, then discarding it like a used tampon once it’s served its nefarious purpose.

A fine example is Ireland. In the 19th century, if you were a liberal or a radical or an American, by which I repeat myself, you believed that the fiery, poetic temper of the soulful Celt could never be subdued, there would be bloodshed as long as Dublin was under London’s iron yoke, and the only solution was Home Rule or better yet independence. After a satisfactory level of carnage, this great feat was accomplished. Glory, Columbia! And now, of course, all good liberals believe that Dublin should be under Brussels’s infinitely good and caring yoke. Conclusion: consistency is for the weak.

Similarly, Ian Smith and Robert Mugabe both proclaimed that Washington and London wanted to tell them how to run their countries. Can you really say they were lying? Of course, Washington and London wanted Smith to put in Mugabe. Now they want Mugabe to put in Tsvangirai. The former eventually had to knuckle under, courtesy of the appeaser Vorster. The latter will do no such thing. That’s soft power for you: the ratchet works in one direction. And the tree shall be known by its fruit.

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By: AndrewSshi https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/comment-page-1/#comment-5871 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:35:08 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=660#comment-5871 Tim,

I wonder, though, if the whole “real America” business is an aggressive regionalism or if it’s not more of a strong believe in a unitary, sea-to-sea America, but one that their opponents absolutely should not govern under any circumstances. Kind of like, say, a Ba’ath insurgent from sometime before 2007 who loved his country as a whole too much to see it governed by a clutch of clerics in Najaf.

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By: hestal https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/comment-page-1/#comment-5870 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 02:09:05 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=660#comment-5870 There are two Golden Rules in our divided America:

The Liberto-Golden Rule of Reciprocity

You are to love your neighbors as yourself, and to do this you must protect their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The Tyranno-Golden Rule of Reciprocity

You are to love your neighbors as yourself, and to do this you must convert them to your religion, or political party, or skin color, or gender, or sexual orientation.

There are two political parties: Liberto and Tyranno.

The Tyranno Party feels an almost divine right to rule. They have a deep sense of certainty about the world and how it should be, and they alone have access to this certitude. And they are exclusionary or, in certain circumstances, separatist. They have been around for a very long time. For nearly two centuries they were called Democrats and dominated the South. One of their leaders, R. Albert Mohler, published “Culture Shift” earlier this year and in it he calls for the removal of this group???? children from the public schools as a first step toward creating a new nation.

These two Americas have always been here because they are a function of the two basic human natures. So the argument is old, uncomfortable, but far less dangerous than it was two centuries ago.

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By: nord https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/10/29/nationalism-in-passing/comment-page-1/#comment-5869 Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:30:33 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=660#comment-5869 “For example, the kind of fringe sentiment on the religious right that Obama is the anti-Christ, which may speak about loyalty to the United States of America in passing, but which is really about a commitment to some post-national or non-national form of social identity.”

I love it. As someone who supports neither, but is far, far, far closer to McCain than Obama, I look at this statement and think, “what does Bill Ayers think?” What do most people who live in Cambridge, Ann Arbor, Ithaca, State College, and Berkeley feel about loyalty to the United States of America? The Weather Underground planted their bombs because dissent is the highest form of patriotism, no doubt.

Call it a cheap shot, but really, the vitrol against Obama is about the same as it was against Kerry. And for all the whining from the Obama campaign, I don’t want to think what would have been said if Clinton had been the nominee. We’d be shown vincent foster and monica look-a-likes at rethuglican rallies, with strong undercurrents of anti-lesbian, plural marriages…

In a crisis, communities come together. After 9/11, it was only the move-on crowd that was on the outside. Bush may have squandered that atmosphere, but crank issues, be it creationism, pro/con abortion, death penalty, redistributive economics (not those between $150-$200k!), will not bring the country together.

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