Comments on: Hey It’s Franklin https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:44:36 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: AndrewSshi https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5624 Sat, 30 Aug 2008 15:44:36 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5624 [My opening caveat is that I have exactly two semester of survey U.S. history from back in undergrad, so I could be terribly wrong. That said…]

I’ve thought about this for a while, and it seems to me that the “consensus” position seen in U.S. politics in the middle part of the twentieth century was the anomaly, and overheated rhetoric generally more then norm. Look at the level of venom the American right directed towards (pre-WWII) FDR, or indeed, the energy of the populist movement of the turn of the twentieth century (two say nothing of the early and mid-nineteenth century).

Brief moments of consensus are just that, brief moments.

But since you’re a scholar rather than a journalist, you don’t necessarily need to be a part of take-no-prisoners political rhetoric. So basically, what Carl and Bill said.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5618 Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:31:42 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5618 We hope. That’s really my reply to Samth: I hope that’s true, and I’m going to act as if it is or could be.

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By: Doug https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5617 Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:17:16 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5617 “the great left-right circle jerk that swirls around a lot of the predominant culture war issues wrecks real lives, messes up important institutions, distracts from genuinely urgent challenges, and leaves a meandering shitpile of misbegotten policy in the way of folks who just want to get on with living and working decent, ordinary lives.”

Are left and right equally to blame for the circle jerk? I’m guessing that you don’t think so, why not say so?

Nixonland is very good indeed, and one way to read it is as a warning to the Obama campaign. Perlstein’s been working on the book for years, but its publication this spring is really a nice coincidence. (Or design by a publisher who’s cleverer than most.) Because I think that if Obama wins in November, then we will have left a great deal of Nixonland behind. Not all of it, of course, some of the debates are as old as the republic. But the perception that full rights for blacks — and now, by extension, to all minorities — were by definition a limitation of the legitimate rights of whites will be decisively struck down.

Still, I read the book thinking “This is how McCain could win.” Nixonland wants us to stay there, but as Obama said last night, we are a better country than that.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5616 Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:19:57 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5616 I guess I’m just trying to figure out what use Reasonable Guys actually are at the moment. Because I do think there are conjunctures of history (not just particular discursive contexts) where a Reasonable Guy is like a person in a bathing suit at a black-tie party, very badly out of place. But the Weber material is spot-on, yay Carl. I think particularly the reminder that politics is always in the moment, that it only has accumulative force by accident, not by the conscious design of the people doing politics.

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By: Carl https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5615 Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:58:20 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5615 What Bill said.

Oh, and I expect you to like me now. 😉

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By: Bill McNeill https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5614 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:44:59 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5614 In response to the concerns expressed in this and previous post that your writing here may be excessively moderate or difference-splitting…so what if it is? In this blog you play the role of the Reasonable Guy. That particular mode of discourse isn’t by itself enough to change the world–it’s not even the only valid mode of discourse–but it’s an important one nonetheless. The world needs its Reasonable Guys. The world needs barefisted radicals too, but let somebody else handle that part. One person can’t do it all. Ultimately the best any of us can manage once we’ve made it past a certain baseline of speciousness is just do whatever it is we do.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5613 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:23:31 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5613 I guess what I mean, Samth, is that I think a lot of Americans have a practical approach to the politics of everyday life, in a way that wasn’t true in 1968. E.g., that when its about someone they know or have to deal with, all sorts of variant approaches to everyday life, all sorts of identities, all sorts of cultural preferences, are just fine. When that gets distilled into patently unreal scenarios, hypotheticals, distilled essences of issues that have nothing to do with how we actually live, then people are willing to fight, but that’s because they’re fighting over imaginary landscapes a million miles away from their actual lives. This is not to say that those fights are not powerful and potentially disastrous: ethnic wars and genocide have a similar disjuncture between the everyday, in which ethnicity is no big deal, and the extraordinary abstraction, in which it is suddenly a valid reason to commit murder. I just think that when you look at how many Americans now actually live–red state or blue–there’s a kind of ordinary pragmatism and generalized decency that is a zillion miles away from the fighting keyboard brigades going at each other. I think this goes for institutions as well–that a lot of actual practicioners of education or medicine or law or governance just commonsensically use a lot of tools and approaches as the situation warrants, and hope that they go unnoticed by various dogmatists.

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By: Carl https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5612 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:18:10 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5612 I still think Weber was right when he argued in the essays on science and politics as vocations that the ethics of science (scholarship) and politics are fundamentally incompatible. The scholar’s ethic of getting it right produces an infinite process of approximation and revision. No question is ever settled and discussion is always open. “In science, each of us knows that what he has accomplished will be antiquated in ten, twenty, fifty years.”

For the politician the ethic is to get things done now, based on and existential gamble and a sense of commitment to ultimate values or to responsibility in the present. Politicians can’t wait for science to grind through its process. “To take a practical political stand is one thing, and to analyze political structures and party positions is another…. The words one uses in [a political meeting] are not means of scientific analysis but means of canvassing votes and winning over others. They are not plowshares to loosen the soil of contemplative thought; they are swords against the enemies: such words are weapons. It would be an outrage, however, to use words in this fashion in a lecture or in the [classroom].”

Further, Weber says “I am ready to prove from the works of our historians that whenever the man of science introduces his personal value judgment, a full understanding of the facts ceases.

His point is that scholarship has an independent value of generating reliable, clear, non-partisan understanding that is instantly lost if it’s politicized. All of the sophisticated ideology critique of the last hundred years has complicated, but not changed this fact: from somewhere we need to be able to get clean data to make our decisions with.

I realize you’re not really wondering about whether to do politics, but how to do politics. I’m saying that once you decide to do politics, you’ve just gotta plant your feet and go. But the scholarly ethic is never going to let you sleep about it, especially if you try to mix politics in with activities, like blogging, that you feel teacherly about.

Cheers.

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By: samth https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2008/08/28/hey-its-franklin/comment-page-1/#comment-5611 Thu, 28 Aug 2008 19:33:20 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=628#comment-5611 That makes me think that we could have a consensus politics that was vaguely libertarian on many cultural and social issues while broadly aiming for much of what is often described as lying within ??family values??, while generally pragmatic on many other major political issues. In fact, it makes me think that we already do have that consensus.

Why would you possibly think this? Usually, I have a lot of respect for the thought you put into the ideas on this blog, but this is just silly. There’s no empirical evidence whatsoever that people want either libertarianism or pragmatism on any particular issue.

I recognize that a politics that handles the profound disagreements people have in this country is ultimately going to be messy, but that’s life. The fact that you ‘just can’t deal with’ this is neither here nor there. We have to fight for our beliefs – that’s what politics is.

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