Comments on: In Which I Pick Some Nits https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:41:41 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4541 Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:41:41 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4541 That’s right. It’s not a question of the dragon’s capability. But when Temeraire flew across Asia and then into Western Europe, there were a series of questions about how he would deal with both ferals and with human-dragon societies along the way, as well as deal with water and food. When Novik has the Tswana-Sotho dragons and their human companions flying in a week to Cape Coast Castle (which I think is a bit faster than we’ve seen dragons fly the same distance before), it’s as if there is literally nothing in their way in terms of other societies and as if there are no problems whatsoever keeping the dragons supplied. Contrary to the way some people imagine rain forest, for example, I think the dragons would have had immense difficulty finding food in the Congo basin. It’s one thing to have them eating elephants or other game in open savanna and another in that region. And they would have had to go through there or along the Atlantic coast (equally difficult environment for large animals) in order to get to West Africa in anything like the time frame specified with the capabilities they’re said to had. Moreover, they would have had to go through regions where there were large and powerful precolonial states in our history, so do those simply not exist (or do not have dragons) in Novik’s Africa?

It’s as if Temeraire had gone from Western China to Napoleonic France without encountering the Ottomans or the Prussians.

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By: rhd9w https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4538 Sat, 10 Nov 2007 06:03:29 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4538 Whatever the other problems, Novik actually makes clear that the slave ports were destroyed by multiple parties of dragons departing from the same location, each taking about a week to get to their target. So its not just one dragon army flying around faster and farther than previous books had shown possible. See p. 317.

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By: Nancy Lebovitz https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4506 Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:22:26 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4506 Fats Durston: Dragons eat elephants–it was the domestication of elephants which made the African dragon/human civilization possible.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4501 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:48:01 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4501 In the sense of this post, provincializing Europe is just about taking its history as being history like any other. In the world that we actually live within, saying that you want to get beyond being analytically Eurocentric is a more complicated prospect, because there is a relatively value-free argument to be made that structures or ideas or experiences that were internal to Western Europe really did transform the rest of the world relatively independent of any larger forces, structures or experiences, that modernity emanates outward from Western Europe and therefore that European history has a different determinative weight than other histories in the last 500 years.

I can argue for or against that kind of perspective pretty easily, and of course, it isn’t ever a value-free argument either way.

But if you’re engaged in fantasy, or in alternate history that isn’t narrowly counterfactual, then you’re no longer so burdened by what really happened. In the case of these books, the author has actually taken away a lot of what made Western European societies globally powerful in the late 18th Century. If there’s colonization in the Americas, it’s only in the West Indies and possibly Brazil. That has to affect the sheer volume of the Atlantic slave trade at the very least, though Brazil and the West Indies alone could account for a great many slaves. There can’t be a “triangular trade” in quite the form that we know if it there aren’t colonies in North America. It doesn’t appear that there is extensive British or Portuguese involvement in India. Or for that matter Portuguese involvement in Mozambique. I don’t know that she’s said anything about Dutch involvement anywhere–the British are in control of Cape Town in the fourth book, without reference to the VOC. That alone is huge: try to imagine the Renaissance and the Enlightenment without an economically powerful Netherlands.

So once you’ve kicked out that much from the underpinnings of the history we know, keeping Western Europe in its familiar Napoleonic contours while making southern Africa rather imaginatively (and attractively) different starts to raise questions about how we always put Europe back in the center even when it doesn’t belong there. I understand why Novik is doing it this way: it’s the same reason that SF authors often imagine aliens as cat people or toad people or insect people. Because your readers need a safe harbor when you’re imagining a world that runs by different rules. Napoleonic fictions (and reality) bring the fantasy to ground in something that the readers know and find comforting. But the imaginary history is now running on two very asymmetrical bases: a world that ought by all lights to be completely different from the history we know is in one place almost absolutely the same and in another place radically, even implausibly, different. I think it would be a good idea to think about provincializing Europe in some of our imaginings. If even in our fantasy histories, Europe is always what we imagine that it was, while other societies are clay for our imagination, then there is some sense in which we are believing in the racial or cultural destiny of Europe no matter what. Which seems silly to me, whatever I might think of the influence or impact of Western expansion. I can think of a zillion plausible points of contingent divergence where Western Europe didn’t turn out to be the Europe of Enlightenment, of Renaissance, of Christianity, of the scientific revolution, of industrial capitalism, of colonial expansion, of slavery–well, at least if I’m also imagining dragons.

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By: Withywindle2 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4500 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:54:27 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4500 You seem to have a moral imperative lurking in your comment, about the desirability of provincializing Europe; this might be spelled out. But set that aside for a moment: at the level of craft, should one abandon the familiar historical narrative completely? Part of the attraction of F & SF – of fiction writ large, I suppose – is that it speaks to a partly familiar subject matter, a common history – it anchors the strange in the familiar. Whether or not we should be attracted to the completely strange–provincializing the familiar–is it in our nature as readers? In our capacity?

Then too, history is a ground for invention – incredibly rich – and fantasy soars not least by building upon that rich ground – and on all the other fictions that have built upon that ground, and now themselves form a further ground for invention. When you call for provincialization, it seems to me you call for a leap of genius, imagination, that can substitute for the rich ground of history and genre convention. This asks a great deal of writers – perhaps is worthy of the attempt – but also involves abandoning the collectiveness richness of the tradition in search of something new. Your implicit aesthetic, it seems to me, may have higher literary costs, for writer and for reader, than is at first apparent.

All this separate from the question of whether these Temeraire novels are uneven in their execution of their desired aesthetic.

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By: Brad https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4499 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:27:31 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4499 s this weird asymmetry where you hold European history more or less steady [...] while everything else is free to swing wildly into some new shape..." One explanation: human history is a tale of cruel, sadistic, aggressive, destructive behavior, so by holding European history steady Europe is saddled with that baggage, while everyone else’s history can be “improved” (even to the point of moral superiority if one so chooses). It’s not unusual; I come across this even in so-called nonfiction.]]> “…there’s this weird asymmetry where you hold European history more or less steady […] while everything else is free to swing wildly into some new shape…”

One explanation: human history is a tale of cruel, sadistic, aggressive, destructive behavior, so by holding European history steady Europe is saddled with that baggage, while everyone else’s history can be “improved” (even to the point of moral superiority if one so chooses). It’s not unusual; I come across this even in so-called nonfiction.

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By: Doug https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4494 Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:54:20 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4494 Sienkiewicz is relevant here because his setting is the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, an important player in Europe from the 1400s to the 1700s but well off the beaten path of Plato-to-NATO, or indeed most general courses in European history. To say nothing of the many heaping servings of warmed-over England that form the basis of so much fantasy writing. Putting provincial Europe at the center of your work is another interesting take. (Guy Gavriel Kay has done this several times, I’m led to understand, but the only one I attempted was a re-hash of Emperor Justinian, and the fantastic elements seemed superfluous and uninteresting once you figured out the historical model.)

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By: Doug https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4493 Sun, 04 Nov 2007 22:44:13 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4493 Her livejournal is here

http://naominovik.livejournal.com/

why not ask? You might get roped in as a beta reader, but that could be fun. Maybe that’s the way to get Mr T to Edinburgh for a little enlightenment.

Also, I think that Capt Riley’s family is said to have holdings in the West Indies, so apparently the sugar trade is still there. That would provide at least some underpinning for the Atlantic slave trade, even without the colonies that eventually became the US. Also, Halifax is mentioned as a breeding ground and (I think) naval station, so maybe Nova Scotia, Labrador and others are settled by Europeans. Presumably Newfie jokes will eventually be told in Novik’s world. Maybe one trade route is Caribbean/Atlantic Canada/Great Britain, with Halifax as big as Boston and all the fishing on the Grand Banks done from there. Absent Virginia and the Carolinas and you don’t have as much slave trade, and you don’t get King Cotton a little later, but sugar plantations — and possibly Brazil — might provide enough market for the slave trade as depicted in the books.

As for provincializing Europe, Paul Park’s A Princess of Roumania is an interesting take. Bucharest is the most important capital on the continent, with Ratisbon (usually known to us as Regensburg, Germany) apparently a close second. Haven’t read the second and third books in the set, so I can’t say how it holds up, but it’s an interesting take.

I’ve also long maintained that Henryk Siekiewicz’s epic trilogy is just waiting to be marketed to an F&SF public, with mega-dollars to be made by the first press that gets it right.

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By: Russell Arben Fox https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4492 Sun, 04 Nov 2007 21:49:59 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4492 I’m glad you say you like the books regardless, because on first reading of your review you completely undermined my enthusiasm for the books on the basis of the first three. Maybe “enthusaism” is the wrong word; I don’t think they’re particularly good books, but they were a ton a fun. And the third book won a lot of sympathy from me because of its willingness to play the Napoleonic wars relatively straight (as straight as possible when you’ve got dragons in play), with the British and Prussians getting stomped at first, instead of pulling out some miraculous change of fortunes there at the end of book three.

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By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/11/03/in-which-i-pick-some-nits/comment-page-1/#comment-4491 Sun, 04 Nov 2007 21:36:30 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=450#comment-4491 “A mortal tutor?” asked his Grace, the Duke of Westernesse. “What are you thinking of, boy? Surely he can teach you nothing more.”

“Now, Pater. Mr. Smith is quite sharp as humans go.” The young elf-lord bit into a Hesperidean apple with sharp teeth. “Indeed, some of his insights into moral behavior apply to elfs as much as men, and are worthy of preservation. But, no, ‘tutor’ is by way of euphemism. He was a witty companion while I sojourned in Edinburgh, and I would gladly continue the acquaintance. He desires time to study, and has expressed interest in a sojourn to the Faerie lands. What objection can there be?”

“The drain to my purse,” his Grace grumbled. “And there is the problem of the return journey.” He cocked an eyebrow at young Verdigris. “Have you discussed that with him?”

Verdigris’ fangs devoured yet more of the apple’s pulpy flesh. “Mmm … no. I thought I would leave that as a challenge to him. He is intelligent, Mr. Smith. Surely it will be no great challenge for him to figure out the route.”

“Moral behavior will get him past the Hounds?” His Grace barked laughter. “It hasn’t even taught him to distrust an elf prince.”

“Intelligent, but young, my Mr. Smith,” said Verdigris. “But he will have time enough in Faerie to mature his wits.”

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