Comments on: Zimbabwe-Rhodesia Was Not Super! https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/06/12/381/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:16:52 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/06/12/381/comment-page-1/#comment-3650 Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:16:52 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=381#comment-3650 Tim,

Incidentally, what are the prospects for South Africa to stay democratic and stable, with no expulsions, civil wars, dictatorships, etc.? In my class with Harry Wright, as the transition was gathering steam, my prediction was that a black democracy of some sort would make it there.–again, prediction holding so far, though the ANC shows alarming tendencies toward one-party-ism. Thoughts?

]]>
By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/06/12/381/comment-page-1/#comment-3649 Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:26:45 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=381#comment-3649 Nord, I don’t see that Mugabe provided “a lot of stability” for 20 years. He brutalized the southern part of the country in the early 1980s, and the current collapse had clear roots around 1994-95. That leaves a grace period of about a decade from 1985-95 when things seemed relatively ok, but in retrospect, a lot of things were already rotting in the foundation at that time.

]]>
By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/06/12/381/comment-page-1/#comment-3648 Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:05:49 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=381#comment-3648 Emanuel,

Yes, I did a paper comparing Ugandan and Kenyan policy toward Asians, asking why the different outcomes. I had a nicely complex answer, but I was at that point (1988) arguing that when 1) a Kikuyu-dominant government came to power again, and 2) the Kikuyu commercial classes decided they didn’t want Asian competition, then 3) out the remaining Asians would be evicted, with no particular tears on the part of any other Kenyans. This I think was a reasonable argument to make in 1988. Now, there *wasn’t* a Kikuyu-led government until arap Moi left, so I didn’t get a chance to test the thesis until just the last few years–at which point, no expulsions. I don’t know exactly what Kikuyu-Asian economic tensions are simmering right now, if any, so I don’t know where that part of the thesis stands. I do suspect, however, that the expulsion/no expulsion decisions have a great deal to do with economic interest, and very little to do with curricula, arts, or food. Asian prominence in business and teaching employment makes them more likely to be expelled than the reverse. The only cultural argument I’ll take as realy promoting non-expulsion is soccer!

]]>
By: nord https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/06/12/381/comment-page-1/#comment-3647 Thu, 14 Jun 2007 02:39:32 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=381#comment-3647 Were/are there a sustainable democratic / majoritarian models for Zimbabwe and South Africa? I can’t see how a democratically elected government can co-exist with a society where 10% of the population lives at a first world level, and 90% at a third world level. Perhaps gradualism can delay the process – certainly Mugabe provided a lot of stability for +20 years. The ANC doesn’t seem threatened with elections yet, so they may have time, but the end point still seems the same.

]]>
By: emmanuelgoldstein https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/06/12/381/comment-page-1/#comment-3646 Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:24:59 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=381#comment-3646 Tim,

Thanks for the rebuttal. You might also have mentioned that the Smith govt. almost certainly used chemical and biological weapons against the rebels in 1979 and 1980. (See pp. 28-42 of Chandre Gould’s PhD here) These sorts of things make it difficult to believe that Smith seriously intended to give way to liberal democracy.

Withywindle,

FWIW, overt persecution of Asians in Kenya lasted from 1963 to 1969, and had lost intensity well before the end. (The only other period was during the 1982 coup attempt in Nairobi, and that was in the context of a general breakdown of law & order). Also, a fair few of the Asians kicked out by Amin went to Kenya.

Anyway, since 1969, Kenyans of South-Asian descent have earned prominence in the arts, business, the professions (a Chief Justice, several lawyers of distinction, etc.) and almost every other sphere of Kenyan life you care to mention. This guy has entered Kenya’s national mythology; the national history curriculum acknowledges the role of Asians in Kenya’s history; Kenya’s first vice-president was half-Goan; a Kenyan team of largely South-Asian descent did exceptionally well at the 2003 World Cup; disproportionately large number of South-Asian women teach in majority-black schools; the national religious-studies curriculum requires study of all three of Christianity, Hinduism and Islam; Asian food is popular; Asian professionals contributed greatly to the late 90’s revival of substantive democracy; the remaining hatreds are best explained by class not race.

]]>
By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/06/12/381/comment-page-1/#comment-3645 Tue, 12 Jun 2007 16:00:21 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=381#comment-3645 I think the very first time I read in any detail about Zimbabwe–sometime back in the mid-1980s–I asked myself “I wonder when they’ll get around to kicking out the whites?” I’m only startled it took so long. But then, when I did a paper in high-school about policy toward Asians in Uganda and Kenya, I also predicted that the Kenyans would expel the remaining Asians the next time it seemed convenient, and that doesn’t seem to be happening. (Yet?–I didn’t time-limit that prediction!) So I’m only batting 50% on predicted expulsions/dispossessions in Africa so far.

Kirchik is an interesting voice on The New Republic’s “The Plank” blog.

I suppose it would be interesting to know if (non-white) Zimbabweans are the sources of Kirchik’s argument, which would argue that some of them are constructing a retrospective myth of Muzorewa, as a way to provide a cultural underpinning for a political departure from the Mugabe regime. Even if factually false, this potentially could be a very useful myth to promote for Zimbabwe’s future. (Cf. “we were all in the Resistance during the war, m’sieu.)

]]>