Comments on: A Quick Comment on Hillary Clinton https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:32:03 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: adam https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-5207 Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:32:03 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-5207 I’m not a big fan of Hillary either, and I’m a democrat. I don’t like her “win at any costs” strategy which includes attempting to go against the will of the people.

She behind in states won, deligate count, popular vote, and more recently, behind in electabilty.

If she wins, it’ll be a sad, sad day for the democratic party.

-Adam
http://www.worldfightsite.com

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By: jennfreeman https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3456 Wed, 11 Apr 2007 15:29:34 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3456 THe only reason i found this site was so i could find somewhere to post my vewis about this presidential canidate. I think that Hillary Clinton is a joke. On her “offical website” she doesn’t even post her veiws on the issues, all it is is just tryingto get people to support her. News flash you arn’t gong to get supporters that way, I have to do a schoool project on you and i can’t even find informatoin on your veiws hate to say it hunbut you are never going to winif a 16 year old can’t even google you your not that popular. yeah get you head into the game or your not even goign to have a fighting chance. I found information on all the other canidates besides you.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3182 Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:02:57 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3182 New postings coming soon. Was just overwhelmed with the first week of classes plus birthday party for six-year old.

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By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3181 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:36:02 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3181 Tim,

I apologize for switching from the Hillary discussions. I was annoyed at Neel K’s comment–but it’s the sort of annoyance that just leads to pointless, repetitive arguments–is so! isn’t so!–so I shouldn’t have indulged in my annoyance. I like being a conservative voice on your blog comments, but I’d just as soon be so on issues where there’s some vague chance of a meeting of minds. (I.e., anything having to do with the Iraq War seems to be right out.) Any chance for a new posting from you, on some other subject?

I very much enjoyed your link to Wil Wheaton, FYI; so did my wife.

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By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3180 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:53:12 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3180 Gilmore vs. Gonzales: http://volokh.com/posts/1134369043.shtml

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By: Neel Krishnaswami https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3178 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:32:15 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3178 Secret law: Gilmore versus Gonzales.

The government got its “evidence” against Jose Padilla by torturing people until they made up allegations, and then imprisoned him for three and a half years without bringing charges against him. This detention was solitary confinement, with extend periods of sensory deprivation, plus of course the usual sleep deprivation and stress positions. The government only brought charges when it began to look like the Supreme Court would rule about the legality of his detention, so that they could make the case moot. The charges they have at long last filed against him conspicuously do not involve any of the dirty bomb charges they made when they announced his detention in 2002, precisely because they don’t have any evidence that can stand up in court.

If you really believe he was engaging in terrorist actions against us, I have a bridge to sell you — I even promise it will collapse when terrorists drive over it.

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By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3177 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 15:29:42 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3177 Follow-up for Neel: I just want to check–were you a British or a French policy-marker in 1936, would you have intervened in any way in support of the Spanish Republic?

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By: hestal https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3176 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 03:10:55 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3176 Withywindle, it would make things easier for your readers if you would use quotation marks around the several paragraphs you incouded from Number 10. I couldn’t find anything in your own words about managerialism. But I did notice that you failed to include Madison’s words, “the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority.” So he was in favor of rules and protecting minority rights. Rules of operation and process are basic elements of managerialism.

I fail to find any cause and effect relationship between prudence and faction as you claim. I did find prudence 31 times in the entire set of Federalist essays and none of them hinted of any connection between prudence and faction.

Good luck to you in your writing.

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By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3175 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 01:06:14 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3175 For Neel: I don’t believe we have given up essential liberties, and I believe the powers delegated to the government by the Patriot Act et al have made us safer. As far as I can tell, the Bush administration has detained a handful of citizens (Jose Padilla) engaged in terrorist actions against us, and tortured none of them. It maintains the traditional executive claim to open mail without warrant in case of emergency. I am not quite sure what your “secret law” schtick is about.

So far as it goes, I am quite willing to have our government torture foreigners to prevent nuclear bombs from going off in our cities. Since I am willing to endorse such actions, I know how considerably distant Bush administration policy is from them–how gentle and restrained it is. You may, of course, have some ludicrously loose definition of torture in mind. Maybe it now includes spanking.

The sleep of England was an unwillingness to recognize the Nazi threat, not an unwillingness to support POUM.

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By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2007/01/23/a-quick-comment-on-hilary-clinton/comment-page-1/#comment-3174 Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:50:59 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=321#comment-3174 s commentary on the Constitution in The Federalist. Madison, of course, was centrally concerned with the prudential goal of stability: “Stability in government is essential to national character and to the advantages annexed to it, as well as to that repose and confidence in the minds of the people, which are among the chief blessings of civil society.” He was equally concerned with the danger that prudence, and hence faction, posed to stability: The friend of popular governments never finds himself so much alarmed for their character and fate, as when he contemplates their propensity to this dangerous vice .... The instability, injustice, and confusion introduced into the public councils [by faction], have, in truth, been the mortal diseases under which popular governments have everywhere perished. Madison was equally aware of the Hobbesian and the Rousseauian solutions to faction: “There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.” He rejected both: liberty was a sine qua non, and Rousseau’s proposed utopia both impractical and, on Lockean grounds, undesirable. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other: and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and view of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties. [New paragraph.] The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man. Finally, and with stunningly swift dismissal, he rejected the Hobbesian and Lockean gesture toward sovereign reason. It is in vain to say that enlightened statesmen will be able to adjust these clashing interests, and render them all subservient to the public good. Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm. Nor, in many cases, can such an adjustment be made at all without taking into view indirect and remote considerations, which will rarely prevail over the immediate interest which one party may find in disregarding the right of another or the good of the whole. In effect, Madison recurred to a Machiavellian theme. The prescription of reason suited only ‘imaginary republics and principalities which have never been seen or known to exist in reality.’ There was no escape from prudence and interest: “The parties are, and must be, themselves the judges.” Having dismissed all alternatives, Madison decided that the problems caused by prudence and interest could only be solved in turn by the proper deployment of prudence and private interest: “The causes of faction cannot be removed, and that relief is only to be sought in the means of controlling its effects.” Madison therefore took from Locke, and Montesquieu, the idea of a balance of interests within government—but, unlike Locke, he no longer attempted to moderate or balance the operation of prudential judgment itself. Instead, he radically intensified the operation of prudential judgment and interest within the operation of government itself. The different branches of government parcellized not only sovereignty but also prudential judgment, and gave each branch and office a fraction of both. Moreover, while the people were taken as formlessly equal in their capacity for prudence, (a shade of Rousseau,) the different offices were designed to be unequal in strength and function—individual and particularized. This variation of offices institutionalized prudential particularity into the very structure of government. This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public. We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of power, where the constant aim is to divide and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the other—that the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public rights. These inventions of prudence cannot be less requisite in the distribution of the supreme powers of the State. There was no unitary sovereign, no monist consensus, no sovereign reason; but plurality, parcellized sovereignty, and dispersed prudential judgments. The next generation would add the explicit avowal of political party as the productively factional spirit to operate this machine and produce the public interest. The people would exercise a democratic and universal prudential judgment—the public exercise of critical prudence—and their judgment, passions, and interests would generate the exercise of sovereign power by this prudential discourse alone.]]> For Hestal, a preview of what may be an article or a chapter someday:

The second line of Lockean influence led through Madison’s commentary on the Constitution in The Federalist. Madison, of course, was centrally concerned with the prudential goal of stability: “Stability in government is essential to national character and to the advantages annexed to it, as well as to that repose and confidence in the minds of the people, which are among the chief blessings of civil society.” He was equally concerned with the danger that prudence, and hence faction, posed to stability:

The friend of popular governments never finds himself so much alarmed for their character and fate, as when he contemplates their propensity to this dangerous vice …. The instability, injustice, and confusion introduced into the public councils [by faction], have, in truth, been the mortal diseases under which popular governments have everywhere perished.

Madison was equally aware of the Hobbesian and the Rousseauian solutions to faction: “There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.” He rejected both: liberty was a sine qua non, and Rousseau’s proposed utopia both impractical and, on Lockean grounds, undesirable.

As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other: and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and view of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties. [New paragraph.] The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man.

Finally, and with stunningly swift dismissal, he rejected the Hobbesian and Lockean gesture toward sovereign reason.

It is in vain to say that enlightened statesmen will be able to adjust these clashing interests, and render them all subservient to the public good. Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm. Nor, in many cases, can such an adjustment be made at all without taking into view indirect and remote considerations, which will rarely prevail over the immediate interest which one party may find in disregarding the right of another or the good of the whole.

In effect, Madison recurred to a Machiavellian theme. The prescription of reason suited only ‘imaginary republics and principalities which have never been seen or known to exist in reality.’ There was no escape from prudence and interest: “The parties are, and must be, themselves the judges.”

Having dismissed all alternatives, Madison decided that the problems caused by prudence and interest could only be solved in turn by the proper deployment of prudence and private interest: “The causes of faction cannot be removed, and that relief is only to be sought in the means of controlling its effects.” Madison therefore took from Locke, and Montesquieu, the idea of a balance of interests within government—but, unlike Locke, he no longer attempted to moderate or balance the operation of prudential judgment itself. Instead, he radically intensified the operation of prudential judgment and interest within the operation of government itself. The different branches of government parcellized not only sovereignty but also prudential judgment, and gave each branch and office a fraction of both. Moreover, while the people were taken as formlessly equal in their capacity for prudence, (a shade of Rousseau,) the different offices were designed to be unequal in strength and function—individual and particularized. This variation of offices institutionalized prudential particularity into the very structure of government.

This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public. We see it particularly displayed in all the subordinate distributions of power, where the constant aim is to divide and arrange the several offices in such a manner as that each may be a check on the other—that the private interest of every individual may be a sentinel over the public rights. These inventions of prudence cannot be less requisite in the distribution of the supreme powers of the State.
There was no unitary sovereign, no monist consensus, no sovereign reason; but plurality, parcellized sovereignty, and dispersed prudential judgments. The next generation would add the explicit avowal of political party as the productively factional spirit to operate this machine and produce the public interest. The people would exercise a democratic and universal prudential judgment—the public exercise of critical prudence—and their judgment, passions, and interests would generate the exercise of sovereign power by this prudential discourse alone.

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