Comments on: Markets and Mules https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Thu, 02 Nov 2006 00:13:01 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: laurel https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2201 Thu, 02 Nov 2006 00:13:01 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2201 s a way to say, “Take courses on non-Western societies”, but I don’t really think that such a requirement is a *diversity* requirement, necessarily. E.g., the value of such a course is independent of whether it educates someone about a society “unlike their own” (with the presumption embedded about the person taking the course).</i> This is a way of describing 'diversity requirements' that I've seen many times, and which, to me, misses the point. People from all cultures should learn about other cultures, so they have an understanding that their own history or way of life is not the only history or way of life; they should also learn about their own culture, in order to fully understand the history and way of life that has shaped them. Practically speaking, though, basically everyone learns about the dominant culture: that's why it's called dominant. I see a diversity requirement as an attempt to get most people to learn about non-dominant cultures, because that history/politics/sociology/philosophy/whatever is an important part of the world and gets less attention than straight powerful European men in most curricula; the identity of the student affects what need that fills, but having a diversity requirement doesn't have to be about getting people to take classes about 'someone else.']]> Tim said: I think there’s a way to say, “Take courses on non-Western societies”, but I don’t really think that such a requirement is a *diversity* requirement, necessarily. E.g., the value of such a course is independent of whether it educates someone about a society “unlike their own” (with the presumption embedded about the person taking the course).

This is a way of describing ‘diversity requirements’ that I’ve seen many times, and which, to me, misses the point. People from all cultures should learn about other cultures, so they have an understanding that their own history or way of life is not the only history or way of life; they should also learn about their own culture, in order to fully understand the history and way of life that has shaped them. Practically speaking, though, basically everyone learns about the dominant culture: that’s why it’s called dominant. I see a diversity requirement as an attempt to get most people to learn about non-dominant cultures, because that history/politics/sociology/philosophy/whatever is an important part of the world and gets less attention than straight powerful European men in most curricula; the identity of the student affects what need that fills, but having a diversity requirement doesn’t have to be about getting people to take classes about ‘someone else.’

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2200 Wed, 01 Nov 2006 21:08:54 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2200 Not so much mandate it, but work persuasively with faculty. E.g., say, “Look, if a lot of you think that a certain goal is important, why not include it in the courses you teach, rather than compel the administration to make sure that you think it is important?” In fact, a new requirement that isn’t already a major part of a curriculum would to me be a signal that the people pushing the requirement may either lack general support throughout the faculty or that they themselves lack a certain amount of faith in the idea behind the requirement.

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By: Dee https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2199 Wed, 01 Nov 2006 16:41:10 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2199 Side note: History profs are overrepresented in that article, though I’m not sure what that means (Wagner is also a historian).

Anyhow, Tim says:
“disseminate a particular kind of content or experience so widely throughout the curriculum that a student would have to deliberately go out of their way to avoid contact”

This seems to be suggesting that instead of mandating students to take one from a category of classes, that Williams mandate its professors to all teach some certain thing? That’s quite an infringement on professorial autonomy.

Philosophically, however, it seems to me that category requirements are the correct third way between a tight core curriculum and free-styling your way through college–in my view, such “class from group 1, class from group 2” formulations still allow the marketplace to work while ensuring the student acquires a certain set of experiences/skills. From my experience as an undergrad at Williams in the 1990s, the market worked far more freely for the “Peoples & Cultures” requirement than for the science requirement, where all the people who wouldn’t ordinarily take science were smushed into 1 of 2 classes. At a wild guess, some 15-20 classes per semester were open to people who needed to fill the PC req.

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By: Ivory https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2198 Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:43:15 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2198 My college has a diversity requirement even though we live in a majority minority city, 60% of our students speak a language other than English, and we haven’t had an ethnic majority on campus since the mid 90’s. I can’t help but wonder (at times) if the mostly white, mostly educated in the 70’s faculty aren’t a little out of touch with the student’s experience of growing up in a diverse community – at times I feel they are projecting their own needs, values, and ideas on a captive audience.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2197 Tue, 31 Oct 2006 01:52:46 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2197 I think there’s a way to say, “Take courses on non-Western societies”, but I don’t really think that such a requirement is a *diversity* requirement, necessarily. E.g., the value of such a course is independent of whether it educates someone about a society “unlike their own” (with the presumption embedded about the person taking the course).

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By: jpool https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2195 Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:07:27 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2195 s discussion of the problem (particularly the question from Chrisotpher Waters, “Why would our minority students need to take such a course?”) seems to involve the corollary presumption that such courses can only be of use to Western/white folks, with others being diverse enough already. I hope someone brings to his attention what a slap in the face this is to his colleagues who have been teaching such courses – as if their courses did not represent disciplinary knowledge, but simply diversity training. Were there really courses at Williams in the past about non-white/Western people that did not include critical relflection or theoretical analysisis? Also puzzling is the belief from the Williams faculty that they are narrowing the requirements for such courses rather than broadening them. I did my undergrad at Macalester College, which, like Swarthmore, used a loose system of distributions rather than extensive GERs. It seems to me that, taken as whole Williams new requirements either rephrase the existing ones as Courses with Critical Thinking on or Immersion in Difference of Some Kind, or amount to Please Take a Humanities or Social Science Course, Any Humanities or Social Science Course. ]]> I agree in general with your suspicion of curriculum requirements and particularly with your preference for building diversity into the offerings rather than the requirements (though, like affirmative action, diversity requirements do make a certain kind of
tactical sense in the context of departments or institutions that have not yet done this).

What puzzles me is the argument from Williams (and apparently you) that course requirements that define diversity based on the inclusion of material on “minority groups” or “non-Western cultures” are (necessarily) based on the assumption that the person taking them is a Western/non-minority person and studying these different people to widen their otherwise narrow horizons. This seems technically wrong as the “diversity” applies to the subjects studied rather than the identity (or presumed experience) of those taking them. The Williams’s discussion of the problem (particularly the question from Chrisotpher Waters, “Why would our minority students need to take such a course?”) seems to involve the corollary presumption that such courses can only be of use to Western/white folks, with others being diverse enough already. I hope someone brings to his attention what a slap in the face this is to his colleagues who have been teaching such courses – as if their courses did not represent disciplinary knowledge, but simply diversity training. Were there really courses at Williams in the past about non-white/Western people that did not include critical relflection or theoretical analysisis?

Also puzzling is the belief from the Williams faculty that they are narrowing the requirements for such courses rather than broadening them. I did my undergrad at Macalester College, which, like Swarthmore, used a loose system of distributions rather than extensive GERs. It seems to me that, taken as whole Williams new requirements either rephrase the existing ones as Courses with Critical Thinking on or Immersion in Difference of Some Kind, or amount to Please Take a Humanities or Social Science Course, Any Humanities or Social Science Course.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2194 Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:12:26 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2194 Yes. But if you want to fix that, you have to intervene extensively into the pedagogy, and that takes more than just designating classes as requirements. For the vast majority of professors, if there’s a subject or area of expertise that is being taught AND a supposed focus on writing, the former is eventually going to push out the latter.

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By: Laura https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2193 Mon, 30 Oct 2006 12:13:27 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2193 Laurel, I agree with you. There should be a writing requirement in courses at the introductory level. My experience is that that’s not the case and that it’s not the case because there’s too much “course content” to cover and no time to grade the papers. Most intro science courses, even at small liberal arts colleges, are quite large. And then there’s the issue of when those papers are graded, professors often focus on the surface-level grammatical errors rather than the broader issues of structure and style.

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By: laurel https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2192 Mon, 30 Oct 2006 00:24:58 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2192 I kind of think both the diversity and the writing requirements are a little silly, because those aren’t what people typically try to avoid, especially at a place like Swarthmore (or Williams). When I was at Swarthmore, the primary way I saw people avoid particular intellectual experiences was people who came in with a pretty clear idea of what they wanted to study (or at least what kind of thing they wanted to study) and took only as many classes outside of that field as they needed to meet their distribution requirements. For that reason, I think having distribution requirements – or even a core curriculum – makes a lot of sense. A college that aspires to produced seriously educated graduates needs to make sure that they’re all exposed to the forms of evidence and reasoning used in the natural sciences, social sciences, and humanities.

On the other hand, I have no idea why any department would design its introductory courses without a significant writing component. Any introductory class should be designed to make sure that the people who come out of it know, at a minimum, what kind of work people do in that discipline. Since almost all disciplines communicate primarily through papers (except for mathematicians, who communicate through proofs), I don’t understand any department that doesn’t spend a significant chunk of its introductory courses covering how to write papers (or lab reports or proofs) in that discipline. If departments are already doing that, the writing requirement is unnecessary; if they’re not, the writing requirement alone is not that useful, because it separates ‘writing’ from ‘communicating ideas and information in a way comprehensible to your audience’ which is just plain silly.

The diversity requirement is similarly silly, in that most social science courses should address at least one of those issues, and if they don’t, what exactly are they doing?

And yes, it must be nice to teach at Swarthmore. It was pretty sweet to go there.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/10/27/markets-and-mules/comment-page-1/#comment-2191 Sun, 29 Oct 2006 22:17:32 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=291#comment-2191 So you believe in affirmative action quotas, Tom?

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