Comments on: “Many” Is a Numbered Word and Other Miscellaneous Replies https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Wed, 31 May 2006 18:20:40 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: Chris Segal https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1643 Wed, 31 May 2006 18:20:40 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1643 Funny you should mention The Social History of Consumption – just the other week when the “Global Dimming” story broke I was thinking about our discussion of Jeremiahs.

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By: skyfaller https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1642 Wed, 31 May 2006 16:32:42 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1642 I’d just like to say that your History of Consumption course is one of my favorite courses that I ever took at Swarthmore, and that I feel it had a definite message (which you can confirm or refute).

When I signed up for the course, I expected to learn all about the evils of consumerism, but by the end of the course I found myself coming to the conclusion that consumption isn’t all bad, and when done right it can be positively good. I felt that this was the conclusion I was supposed to reach from the readings and discussion, and that was the conclusion I reached in my final paper. I don’t think it would have affected my grade if I had reached the opposite conclusion, although accepting Schorr’s arguments against consumerism wholesale might have betrayed some shortage of critical thinking.

Ultimately I felt that the fact that I perceived the course to have a message and a direction made me more interested in and engaged with the material, and I wouldn’t have had it any other way.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1640 Wed, 31 May 2006 12:53:03 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1640 Going back to Sam, I’d say you’re right, the real question is, “Is this a systemic problem”? Really, the thrust of my critique is to suggest that what precedes that question is, “What is the nature of the problem we’re trying to identify?” I think you have to define the problem well, and also justify why the problem is worth caring about. There are issues which are systemic which are also trivial; there are problems with might be said to be systemic, but they’re just a subset of some other problem.

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By: Doug https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1639 Wed, 31 May 2006 09:45:09 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1639 Throughout this discussion, I’ve been reminded of an exchange in the fall of 2002 between Bill Galston and Ken Pollack (author of The Gathering Storm) about Iraq. “If we were going to get Ken Pollack’s war,” said Galston, “I could be persuaded to support it. But we are not going to get Ken Pollack’s war; we are going to get George Bush’s war, and that is a war I cannot support.”

Similarly, if we were going to get Timothy Burke’s curriculum and pedagogy reforms, I could be persuaded to report it. But from the look of things, we are going to get ACTA’s or Horowitz’s or somebody similar’s, and those are reforms I cannot support. Mainly because the drive I see is to impose a new orthodoxy to replace the one that they (ACTA, etc) perceive to exist at present.

I’m mostly an interested spectator in this discussion. Friends are academics, and I work with a reasonable number of people in the think-tank world–political scientists and international relations specialists, mostly. So elite US universities are something of a nearby neighborhood. It’s not close enough to really repay extensive involvement, but it is worth keeping half an eye on. I hope that my outsider’s perspective is occasionally useful.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1636 Wed, 31 May 2006 00:24:00 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1636 They don’t address that in this report. I would hold that the reason they don’t address it, one way or the other, is their complete lack of controlled definitions and conceptual work at the outset. There’s probably a way to write a report that’s at least arguably, nontionally legit that takes liberal bias as a bigger issue, but there’s a lot of foundational labor to do at the outset–all of it undone by this report.

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By: Doug https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1635 Tue, 30 May 2006 22:27:36 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1635 And while ACTA is presumably looking into “politicization,” will it be examining business schools for systemic pro-market or right-wing views? Would National Security Studies be grilled for pro-military stances?

In short, are things left-of-center bias, while things right-of-center are not?

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1633 Tue, 30 May 2006 21:19:33 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1633 Yes. As a consequence of exposure to gamma radiation during a nuclear test some years ago, I sometimes turn into Mr. Angry Left and proceed to go on a rampage against civility. Like I said, if we want to play the game of “read the comments, comment on the comments”, I’m not sure Erin O’Connor is going to feel real comfortable with some of what can be dredged up out of those threads.

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By: kieran https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1632 Tue, 30 May 2006 21:01:29 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1632 This bit from the Inside Higher Ed comments thread

Burke is a paid-up member of the Angry Left that is destroying the civility of the Internet.

made me laugh out loud.

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By: Joey Headset https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1628 Tue, 30 May 2006 18:52:26 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1628 You should be commended for the amount of respect you are offering Anne Neal in your response. She completely mischaracterized everything you wrote in your initial ACTA piece, and did so with what appears to be deliberate malice. But that’s the Blog-O-Sphere for you. “It’s OK to lie as long as I know I’m right.”

One of these days, you would think that these bloggers might wonder why they need to mischaracterize other people’s arguments to make their own seem superior. If they are so right and everyone else is so wrong, it should be possible to make this evident without lying quite so much.

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By: SamChevre https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/05/30/many-is-a-numbered-word-and-other-miscellaneous-replies/comment-page-1/#comment-1625 Tue, 30 May 2006 15:40:52 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=205#comment-1625 ve been reading this series with considerable interest, as a spectator. I’m not an academic; I spend far more time keeping track of FASBs and ASOPs than keeping up with academia. However, my undergraduate experience is close enough to remember it fairly clearly. Your point of view seems to be well summarized in: <i>For me, the best possibilities of academic life are realized in an appreciation of nuance, complexity, subtlety, depth.</i> I mostly agree with you; my tastes certainly run toward liking complexity. However, sometimes it is important to look at systems and patterns, not at details. To take a fairly egregious example, look at slavery in the American South. There is lots of nuance and complexity possible; there were plenty of slaves who were well treated, loved their masters, continued to work for the same people after emancipation, etc. There were plenty of slaves who were punished brutally whose punishments were fully deserved. But to look at slavery and say, ‘Well, each case is different—you have to look at each case in context,” is not a good response. At some point, you have to say, “This system is a bad system; here are 10 egregiously bad examples.” The point is not to examine any of the 10 examples carefully; the point is to say that this system is a problem. To me, criticism of academia and academic responses to that criticism seem to be making the same mistake. They are arguing over details, when the question is, “Is there a systematic problem?” To that question, I’m inclined to answer yes—but I don’t know for sure. ]]> I’ve been reading this series with considerable interest, as a spectator. I’m not an academic; I spend far more time keeping track of FASBs and ASOPs than keeping up with academia. However, my undergraduate experience is close enough to remember it fairly clearly. Your point of view seems to be well summarized in:

For me, the best possibilities of academic life are realized in an appreciation of nuance, complexity, subtlety, depth.

I mostly agree with you; my tastes certainly run toward liking complexity. However, sometimes it is important to look at systems and patterns, not at details. To take a fairly egregious example, look at slavery in the American South. There is lots of nuance and complexity possible; there were plenty of slaves who were well treated, loved their masters, continued to work for the same people after emancipation, etc. There were plenty of slaves who were punished brutally whose punishments were fully deserved. But to look at slavery and say, ‘Well, each case is different—you have to look at each case in context,” is not a good response. At some point, you have to say, “This system is a bad system; here are 10 egregiously bad examples.” The point is not to examine any of the 10 examples carefully; the point is to say that this system is a problem.

To me, criticism of academia and academic responses to that criticism seem to be making the same mistake. They are arguing over details, when the question is, “Is there a systematic problem?” To that question, I’m inclined to answer yes—but I don’t know for sure.

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