Comments on: School Ties https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:08:57 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: bnsimon36 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/comment-page-1/#comment-1209 Wed, 29 Mar 2006 10:08:57 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=162#comment-1209 Tim, apologies for confusing Amherst and Swarthmore–don’t know what I was thinking! Andy, please keep in mind that there’s more to DIII than the NESCAC schools. Fredonia, where I work, is just as much a DIII school as Hamilton, where I went. But I think there are grounds for defending even Hamilton-style DIII. (I say this as someone who played four years on the golf team and managed the men’s hoops team for 4 years, including my senior year when we were undefeated, unable to go to NCAAs, and lost to Potsdam at home in the ECAC championships when a reserve guard of theirs went nuts on us from 3-point range. No, that didn’t hurt. Seriously, I learned as much about teaching from my best coaches as my best professors.)

To be sure, the more that highly selective liberal arts colleges relax academic admissions standards to get the best athletes they can, the worse the consequences on the intellectual life of the campus are, especially when they insist on having successful football teams (which require lots of players). But see the relevant comment in Gladwell’s “Getting In” on The Game of Life:

Male athletes, despite their lower S.A.T. scores and grades, and despite the fact that many of them are members of minorities and come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds than other students, turn out to earn a lot more than their peers. Apparently, athletes are far more likely to go into the high-paying financial-services sector, where they succeed because of their personality and psychological makeup. In what can only be described as a textbook example of burying the lead, Bowen and Shulman write:

One of these characteristics can be thought of as drive—a strong desire to succeed and unswerving determination to reach a goal, whether it be winning the next game or closing a sale. Similarly, athletes tend to be more energetic than the average person, which translates into an ability to work hard over long periods of time—to meet, for example, the workload demands placed on young people by an investment bank in the throes of analyzing a transaction. In addition, athletes are more likely than others to be highly competitive, gregarious and confident of their ability to work well in groups (on teams).

Shulman and Bowen would like to argue that the attitudes of selective colleges toward athletes are a perversion of the ideals of American élite education, but that’s because they misrepresent the actual ideals of American élite education. The Ivy League is perfectly happy to accept, among others, the kind of student who makes a lot of money after graduation. As the old saying goes, the definition of a well-rounded Yale graduate is someone who can roll all the way from New Haven to Wall Street.

This has to be true, as well, for highly selective liberal arts colleges, for several reasons: (1) while their endowments are large in a relative sense, they simply can’t approach Princeton’s $10.8B, for instance, so have to look at the bottom line to make sure they have long-term futures (and can continue to compete in the status game); (2) I would bet it’s harder to get into a Williams or an Amherst than a Harvard or a Princeton, not least b/c there are fewer seats, so there’s pressure on the smaller schools not to give in on academic merit (should such a thing exist and be measureable in an admissions process) too far; (3) moreover, being smaller, such schools would have to be more sensitive to potential negative effects on campus life, since athletes would make up a larger proportion of the student body than at larger schools, so again there’s pressure to keep admissions standards relatively high; (4) being competitive in DIII is very different than being competitive in DI (don’t tell me an Ivy League school wouldn’t love to make it to the second round of the NCAAs in basketball next year!), and there’s a wider range of high school athletes who can be competitive at that level, so the odds of being able to recruit academically as well as athletically talented people rise.

The bottom line for me is that athletes even at highly selective liberal arts colleges in DIII are not as different from the rest of the student body as they are at other institutions, so such schools should have an easier time integrating them into the cultural and intellectual life of the campus.

Even at a place like Fredonia, Music, Theater, and Arts majors put in as much time honing their artistic talents as anyone on a team does their athletic talents, so they are in as much danger of becoming segregated from the rest of the campus as athletes are. (I thought I was going to be getting a lot of artsy folks in my classes, but turns out they barely have time to take even gen ed courses b/c their major requirements are so stringent!) Why should we value artistic performances over athletic performances? Shouldn’t we encourage a diverse range of ways for students to contribute to campus life?

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/comment-page-1/#comment-1190 Tue, 28 Mar 2006 15:08:18 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=162#comment-1190 I agree with Bowen and Levin’s analysis–it’s why I look, even here at Swarthmore, to club-oriented sports where most students can be walk-ons after admission and which retain their unspecialized character, like rugby and ultimate frisbee, or to intramural athletics. But I accept, in a way that perhaps Bowen and Levin do not, that the cultural and social history of these institutions has created a deep and legitimate association between some kind of athletic program and the overall premise of residential liberal arts education.

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By: Andy https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/comment-page-1/#comment-1189 Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:09:27 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=162#comment-1189 s "Reclaiming the Game: College Sports and Educational Values" before holding up highly selective Division III schools as a model for college athletics. Bowen and Levin make a convincing case that (1) intercollegiate athletics has a larger negative impact on the admissions process at these schools because of the small size of the student body relative to the number of student athletes and (2) that many of the reforms designed to limit the influence of athletics (e.g., no athletic scholarships, limits on recruiting) have actually exacerbated the problem. ]]> I would read William G. Bowen and Sarah A. Levin’s “Reclaiming the Game: College Sports and Educational Values” before holding up highly selective Division III schools as a model for college athletics. Bowen and Levin make a convincing case that (1) intercollegiate athletics has a larger negative impact on the admissions process at these schools because of the small size of the student body relative to the number of student athletes and (2) that many of the reforms designed to limit the influence of athletics (e.g., no athletic scholarships, limits on recruiting) have actually exacerbated the problem.

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By: zp https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/comment-page-1/#comment-1187 Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:49:08 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=162#comment-1187 t learn in the classroom." As a persistantly non-competitive athlete, I learned things through participation in sports. Competition I learned through academics. Go figure.]]> “While what goes on behind the closed doors of classrooms and offices within the university may be more distantly appreciated for the benefits it provides to the rising generation, much of the educational dividend flows elsewhere as graduates head out and away.”

Distantly appreciated? Try openly resented. I think your plan, though, might actually strengthen town-gown relations since the investment in the community would be that more aboveboard . . .

“You learn things through athletic competition that you don’t learn in the classroom.” As a persistantly non-competitive athlete, I learned things through participation in sports. Competition I learned through academics. Go figure.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/comment-page-1/#comment-1186 Wed, 22 Mar 2006 22:04:53 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=162#comment-1186 Yeah, absolutely–basically treat it as the sports equivalent to a business start-up which a university or college contributes some subsidy and has some ownership of IP. Perhaps even treat it in a limited fashion as a university press–a project which is understood to have a civic value independent of whether it returns more than what is invested in it.

It is hard to figure out why spectators and fans treat this as such a bizarre proposition. It’s not hard to figure out why the NFL and NBA wouldn’t root for it–they’re getting their minor leagues free of any cost or hassle to them. But for the athletes and their families, this is a winner–no more of the crazy stuff they have to go through now to get a payoff, and no more exotic pretense at compliance with various rules and restrictions.

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By: withywindle https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/comment-page-1/#comment-1185 Wed, 22 Mar 2006 21:37:10 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=162#comment-1185 Perhaps the universities could retain royalties, or a proportion of equity, in case these spun-off sports teams *do* start to turn a profit.

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By: scott reents https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/comment-page-1/#comment-1184 Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:25:44 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=162#comment-1184 Tim,
I completely agree with your suggestion. In fact, I’ve suggested it to people before, usually to looks of utter bewilderment, so it’s nice to encounter some validation. One alternative arrangement would be to actually sell off the teams to investment groups, along with a license to the university name. That way the university gets out of the business of what amounts to professional farm team management. The challenge would be to maintain the connction to the university that will keep the alumni interested, but I think it could be done. Anyway, the potential payoff seems well worth it.

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By: bnsimon36 https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2006/03/21/school-ties/comment-page-1/#comment-1183 Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:57:29 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=162#comment-1183 First off, congrats on your men’s hoops team making the final 4 in the DIII NCCC Championships this year (knocking out my alma mater along the way decisively, I might add). Second off, got to put in a plug for Hamilton College Philosophy professor Robert Simon’s Fair Play, which makes a sometimes idealistic case that academics and athletics can mix (he implicitly uses DIII as his model; don’t know what he thinks of DI). But my question is whether Amherst (like many other even DIII schools) has different admissions standards for athletes and what the justification is, if so. In Malcolm Gladwell’s “Getting In,” I can see the shape of one potential justification (the most successful US colleges and universities actually use a ‘best graduates’ approach to admissions rather than a ‘best students’ one), but I was wondering how it plays out in a college that for a long time was part of NESCAC (which barred teams from certain kinds of post-season tournaments, most notably the NCAAs in most sports) and now is nationally competitive in DIII. I’m asking as a proponent of college sports in the DIII model.

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