Comments on: Unbelief and Imagination https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/ Culture, Politics, Academia and Other Shiny Objects Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:05:58 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=5.4.15 By: abstractart https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-953 Thu, 15 Dec 2005 18:05:58 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-953 I think it’s pretty clear that because Narnian history is so long, and so *much* of Narnian history is kept out of sight in the massive time jumps we make through the Chronicles series, that Lewis left plenty of room for other, undocumented instances of contact between their world and ours. The scene in The Last Battle where Eustace comments on how Narnia always seems to be on the verge of destruction when they visit and the King informs him of how many millennia of history and how many ages of beauty and grace the English Children have missed precisely *because* of their time-hopping was one of my favorite parts of the story.

Lewis in a later letter wrote that he had no objections to people writing their own stories about travels to Narnia and that he’d purposely left plenty of “hooks” in The Last Battle — time periods and events that are only referenced, not explained, whole geographic regions in the world of Narnia that we’ve never explored — to make that possible. It’s pretty clear that there’s more to Narnia, and more, even, to Narnia/Earth interaction, than the Pevensies are ever allowed to see; that was one of the major themes of Prince Caspian and Voyage of the Dawn Treader, taking these kids who’d been legendary kings and queens and somehow thought they *owned* Narnia and showing them there was a lot more to it than they thought. (The en masse migration of the Telmarines to Narnia, the wacky weirdness in the Eastern Sea, etc.)

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By: emschwar https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-951 Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:05:29 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-951 I posted this quote on UD’s blog, but it seems more appropriate here, actually:

When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
— C.S. Lewis

I believe Lewis saw Susan as someone who was so very afraid of being perceived as childish that she pretended to be what she thought of as grown up, whilst simultaneously missing the point that the true adult is someone who is not afraid to be themselves, even if someone else might think it childish.

As others have pointed out, Lewis likely felt Susan’s *exclusive* need for nylons and lipstick was a symptom of this childishness masquerading as adulthood– not that the items themselves were bad. An analogy can be drawn here to 1 Tim. 6:10, “For the love of money is the root of all evil….”, which is often misquoted as, “Money is the root of all evil.” In both cases, it’s not the things themselves that are problems; it’s only when someone pushes Jesus*cough*Aslan out of first place in their favor that they become problematic.

As far as Emeth going to Heaven, I’m pretty sure it was Cardinal Newman who, when asked if there really was a Hell, said that indeed there was, but that didn’t necessarily mean that God had ever actually sent anyone there. Dissembling? Perhaps. But at least one pretty darned huge hunk of Christianity has held out the possibility– possibly more; that’s the only one that pops to mind off the top of my head.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-950 Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:49:08 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-950 I agree that Emeth’s inclusion in Aslan’s heaven is one of the more interesting moments in the series, in religious/ethical terms.

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By: beelerspace https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-949 Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:57:21 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-949 Lest we forget that Narnia was not written in the all-enlightened world of 2005. Is it fair to take a piece of literature published in the early 1950s and anachronistically stretch it to comply with our own value systems? I am not asking for excuse, but rather a cultural-contextual interpretation.

Secondly, Susan’s “sin” was not that she became a woman, but rather that she became an adult. Like nearly _all_ childrens stories, Narnia is noticably absent of adults. My guess is that Lewis mentions Susan’s not at the whim of an overarching religious system, but his deeply held belief that children, and people, desperately need imagination. If anything, Susan’s fate is propoganda for storytelling, not hell-driven Christianity.

Finally, regarding racism, Lewis makes a rather marked turn towards uncharacteristic universalism at the end of the Last Battle by letting a Telmarine into “heaven,” despite his unwavering adherance to all things Tash. I assure you that the phrase Aslan speaks, “What good you did in Tash’s name, you did in mine, what evil people do in my name they actually do in Tash’s” (or something) is more problematic for most Christians than the lipstick and nylons is for non.

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By: Timothy Burke https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-948 Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:56:24 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-948 It’s actually interesting to me that Lewis and Pullman both run into trouble in their series when they allow the allegorical/theological points to overrun the fiction, both in the culminating works of their series. I think there’s a larger point about imaginative fiction in that: don’t let axe-grinding overwhelm your world, your characters or your story.

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By: Endie https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-947 Tue, 13 Dec 2005 11:29:00 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-947 s birth and death, only eight British children, a horse, and a cab-driver and his wife get to visit One other bit. As someone mentions, there have been other travellers to Narnia. But the wood of the worlds shows a very large number of worlds exist, and no doubt Aslan has his role in each. Those are, though. other peoples' stories.]]> >> But the God of Narnia seems rather slothful in how he dispenses his magical mystery tours of all creation: in between Narnia’s birth and death, only eight British children, a horse, and a cab-driver and his wife get to visit

One other bit. As someone mentions, there have been other travellers to Narnia. But the wood of the worlds shows a very large number of worlds exist, and no doubt Aslan has his role in each. Those are, though. other peoples’ stories.

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By: Endie https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-946 Tue, 13 Dec 2005 10:50:34 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-946 Even if Susan had died at the same time as Susan, Peter and Edmund, I find it hard to believe that Lewis would have sent her to “hell”. The fate of the dwarves (which to be honest, I always found the most disturbing part of his allegory in terms of overtones) is more likely. That said, I’ve been trying to write about the Toynbee article in the Guardian all morning, and I just kept seeing her in the stable with the dwarves.

Lewis is steeped in Plato, and nowhere more so than in the Last Battle (not even in Perelandra and Out of the Silent Planet). Susan’s fate, if she never changed, would surely not be anything so medieval as “hell”. Just never getting to travel further up and further in…

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By: billmcn https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-945 Mon, 12 Dec 2005 22:02:21 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-945 Like a lot of people, I first read the Narnia series as a child and completely missed the allegory. When I reread it as an adult, I was struck by how front-and-center the Christian elements are, but this did not force a reevaluation of the books on my part. Even literature whose charm lies in the creation of a wholly self-contained world must draw on some aspects of this one to give it resonance, and a literal belief in Christianity is ultimately no more relevant to my appreciation of Lewis’ books than my feelings about pagan northern European myths are to my appreciation of “Lord of the Rings”. Besides, much of my experience of Narnia has come a sheen of childhood misconception. On my first time through, I mentally mispronounced the lion’s name “Alison” for reasons I cannot recreate. And at least as shocking as the whole religious angle was to pick up the paper a few years back and read about the Chechnyan separatist leader Aslan Maskhadov. I’d always assumed Lewis had just made that name up.

If Christianity has had little effect on my appreciation of Narnia, Narnia has had an effect on my appreciation of Christianity. I grew up secular, without even some early childhood wrestling with religious faith. Though culturally familiar, Christianity is ultimately like Islam or Hinduism to me: a set of alien beliefs that I can at best understand intellectually, as an outsider. At this point, my childhood enthusiasm for what turns out to have been a pretty overt Christian allegory is about as close to Christian faith as I’m ever going to get. It may not be much theologically speaking, but my warm memories of this enthusiasm gives me a little bit of empathy that I might otherwise lack. If (as I seriously doubt) C.S. Lewis intended Narnia as a sneaky way of indoctrinating unsuspecting children into a religious worldview, it worked for me in some oblique way. And for that I’m grateful.

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By: bostoniangirl https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-944 Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:46:25 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-944 Hmmm, I think that Lewis wanted there to be seven new kings and queens, because seven is a cool number with special significance in a lot of neoplatonic thinking. If Susan had been with them, it would have been eight.

I didn’t like the part where people got condemned to hell, but the hell of the dwarves seemed very real to me as a Christian. It was self-inflicted separation from God and an inability to see the glories all around them.

Humans,

In addition to the Telmarines, the Pevensies, Digory, Polly and that lot, there was also the first king of Narnia who was a cabby.

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By: hektor.bim https://blogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/blog/2005/12/08/unbelief-and-imagination/comment-page-1/#comment-943 Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:12:48 +0000 http://weblogs.swarthmore.edu/burke/?p=126#comment-943 There are a couple of ways to discuss the “problem of Susan”. One way is to talk about the effect it has on one reading it as a child. For me as a child, it was clear that Susan was excluded from “heaven” because she had incorrect thoughts. I also thought it deeply strange that all of these people could so effortlessly throw away their other lives and merge into heaven. The lack of concern about Susan’s fate was also deeply worrying to me. It cemented the problems with “The Last Battle” in my mind and combined with the obvious relish Lewis displayed for destroying Narnia. I don’t think it is really possible to argue directly with this interpretation. I’ve talked to a number of other people who read the Narnia series as children, and they had similar reactions. If this isn’t the impression Lewis wanted to give, then it is clear that he made a mistake, because it has come out strongly to so many people. For a children’s story to mislead or annoy children in vast numbers must be counted as a mistake.

With more thought and study, the problem of Susan can be explained away or at least mitigated, as is done in the link mentioned. I however, find the mention of “nylons and lipstick” to be objectionable regardless, precisely because it is unnecessary. There really isn’t a good reason to deny Heaven to Susan, aside from making a theological point. This is where the real problem for me arises. The Narnia books are ultimately subordinated to the idea of making theological points, and the integrity of the world as a whole suffers. Lewis is almost happy to destroy Narnia, and that is tragic. There shouldn’t be joy in destroying your own creation.

As to the other charges against Lewis, the blatant racism and cultural superiority of the “Horse and His Boy” is hard to counteract. I don’t have any idea how they are going to film that movie without pissing off a great many people, which is too bad, because despite that, it is my favorite, obviously for other reasons.

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